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Panel Design Feedback

YellowJacket RV9

Well Known Member
Patron
Hi all,

I am starting to work with UpNorth on a panel design and would love to get some input before I commit to anything. Here is what I am working with:

GRT Sport SX 8.4"
Dynon D10 backup EFIS
GRT EIS 4000
Garmin GTX327
Garmin GTR200

Ipad RAM mount on passenger side panel

My wiring will be essentially based off of the Vans wiring kit. I do have a backup battery in the D10.

In the plan, you can see I also have a GNS430 or similar spec'd. I do not plan on adding that immediately, but rather down the line as funds allow. For that reason I'd like to leave a spot in the panel and just cover it with a blank until I win the lottery. I know I would also need an audio panel should I go with a 430; I may look for a GPS-only unit.

If you have any suggestions I'd love to hear from you. If you have a slider 7/9 and 8.4" GRT I'd be interested to know it's vertical position on the panel and how much if any of the left forward support rib you needed to remove, as well.

Thanks,

Chris

ip4cj5.jpg
 
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1. Ditch the 327 transponder, buy a Trig remote from GRT (the SX will run it) for just a few dollars more. That way, when you do get your 430W or 650, you'll be all set for ADSB-out in 2020. Also gives you more panel space.

2. With the GPS you won't need an audio panel. You'll need an intercom with multiple unswitched inputs for the audio; use a DPDT toggle switch to swap transmitters. (Not sure if the built in intercom in the GTR200 fits that bill or not, but audio mixers are very inexpensive if that's all you need).

3. I presume you meant 430W, not 430. The non-WAAS is obsolete. Likewise, Garmin will not support the 430W forever. I'd give strong consideration - just for longer support - to going with the 650.

4. For vertical position of EFIS, sit in the plane in your flying position, and move a paper cut out up and down. (I wear bifocals and am close to the panel (short legs!) and found I wanted my EFIS lower than most people).
 
Thanks Bob -

I already own the GTX327, that I got a very good deal on, although I may look into the Trig down the line. I am hoping that as 2020 draws closer some more affordable ADSB-Out sources will emerge.

Good point about the audio panel, and I do have a mixer already. Between the dual watch feature of the GTR200, and a handheld backup, I don't see much reason to have two comms for my mission.

I did indeed mean the 430W, or really any IFR capable GPS. Do any of the newer units share the same dimensions as the 430W?

Thanks again for the advice; I will use this as an excuse to drop in some cushions and sit in the airplane.
 
If you don't mind looking at engine data on the GRT Sport, you can remote-mount the EIS 4000 and save a bit of panel space.

Dave
 
If you don't mind looking at engine data on the GRT Sport, you can remote-mount the EIS 4000 and save a bit of panel space.

Dave

I had considered this, but would like to have the EIS on at startup to monitor oil pressure, etc, while leaving the EFIS off. I also like the redundancy. Maybe a simple warning light would work?

Chris
 
If you don't mind looking at engine data on the GRT Sport, you can remote-mount the EIS 4000 and save a bit of panel space.

Dave

The above is true. Advantages of panel mounting:
1. You can have the EIS running at start up, so you know within seconds if there's no oil pressure. GRT is okay with this, but recommends not running the Sport during start up (unless you have independent power).
2. You can use the EIS timer function to change fuel tanks. (You need access to the EIS to acknowledge the red light)
3. EIS is not a great display, but you can use it for RPM, MP, etc., in the event of EFIS failure.

Your choice.
 
Just my opinion and it may be worth what you are paying for it.

I would move the GRT 8" display up as high as it would go in the panel. I also would move the GRT EIS down as low as it will go in the radio stack and move the GPS up as high as it will go. (Move 3 radios to top with the GPS as high as it will go and EIS below radios.)

Typically we fly VFR and should be looking outside. Having the displays I suggest as high in the panel will make what you need for navigation up high near where you are looking for other traffic.
 
Just my opinion and it may be worth what you are paying for it.

I would move the GRT 8" display up as high as it would go in the panel. I also would move the GRT EIS down as low as it will go in the radio stack and move the GPS up as high as it will go. (Move 3 radios to top with the GPS as high as it will go and EIS below radios.)

Typically we fly VFR and should be looking outside. Having the displays I suggest as high in the panel will make what you need for navigation up high near where you are looking for other traffic.

Excellent idea on the radios/GPS. Not sure how high I can raise the GRT EFIS as it extends back 5" and would start requiring some serious removal of the rib, but I would be interested to see how others have done this. Thanks,

Chris
 
Do not put your key switch above those switches. Any keys or long key chain will be in the way with the switches and may cause them to turn on or off.

I would dump the key switch and just add a Cessna style double master and then use toggle switches for your mags.

The key switch will not keep someone from stealing your airplane and besides, who steals an Experimental?

Add couple of USB charging ports. (Stein has them.)

Group your switches by phase of flight, not by function. In other words, put the landing/taxi lights and fuel pump close together and close to the carb heat so you can go right down the line when preparing to land and don't have to move your hand all over the place. Put the flap switch close to the throttle, close enough so that you don't have to take your hand off the throttle to raise or lower the flaps.

Also, I didn't see any breakers. You will want them for the alternator, flaps, and maybe a few other things.
 
Do not put your key switch above those switches. Any keys or long key chain will be in the way with the switches and may cause them to turn on or off.

In this vein, if you're going to have any critical switches below your EFIS display (heck, really if there will be any there of any kind) put some kind of ledge or finger rest above the switches, or find some way of protecting them. If you're bouncing around a bit and trying to push one of the soft keys, but hit a bump and your finger shuts a switch off instead, it could cause a problem. I'd keep really critical switches (ignition and master) away from everything else and guard them so you don't accidentally bump them.

I mention this because it happened to me in Dad's -6; he has a Skyview wired into a traditional electrical system with avionics master, and the Skyview backup battery was acting funny sometimes. Guess what I hit while trying to close a map screen dialog?

Yep, the avionics master. Lost everything for a second. I was cruising VFR so no big deal, but it might not have been so benign in another situation.
 
Do not put your key switch above those switches. Any keys or long key chain will be in the way with the switches and may cause them to turn on or off.

I would dump the key switch and just add a Cessna style double master and then use toggle switches for your mags.

The key switch will not keep someone from stealing your airplane and besides, who steals an Experimental?

Add couple of USB charging ports. (Stein has them.)

Group your switches by phase of flight, not by function. In other words, put the landing/taxi lights and fuel pump close together and close to the carb heat so you can go right down the line when preparing to land and don't have to move your hand all over the place. Put the flap switch close to the throttle, close enough so that you don't have to take your hand off the throttle to raise or lower the flaps.

Also, I didn't see any breakers. You will want them for the alternator, flaps, and maybe a few other things.

All good points. If I don't eliminate the key switch, I will at least relocate. I do have breakers, probably hard to see in the picture, at the right end of the switch row. I will probably add another for future autopilot.

I will also try to avoid critical switches under/near EFIS without some sort of finger guard.

Thanks for all the great advice.

Chris
 
One of the best things I did was to use the modular panel from http://www.affordablepanels.com/. While not that affordable, it has worked out great and makes future panel upgrades easier because you can do a section at a time. I also have the recessed switch panel, which eliminates the problem of bumping switches in flight. The DJM throttle quadrant is optional but as it turns out, I it works out VERY well and I wouldn't want the Cessna style throttle/mixture controls. Even better is that if I ever elect to put in a CS prop, Dayton sells a three lever cover plate and prop lever so I don't have to re-make my switch panels.

Check out my web site, it is all detailed on there.
 
There have been so e good suggestions so far. If using a key switch, the bottom left side of they panel works well. I personally like the individual mag toggle switch approach. I have done one panel that way with a momentary push button and toggle switch in series to engage the starter. That worked really well and probably more difficult to steal than with a traditional starter key switch.

I like the idea of leaving a hole for an IFR GPS. I recommend the Garmin 400W. You already have a way to talk on one com and listen to a backup frequency, so you are good on radios. If you feel the need down the line, you could add a second com with a dpdt switch as mentioned, but you'll likely almost never use it. If you're waiting to win the lottery to put it in, then don't cut the hole in the first place, because you won't ever use it. If you're planning to save up and plan to fly IFR down the road, then try to pick up a tray and connector kit and go ahead and mount the tray and wire it up so you can just pop the GPS into the tray when you can afford it. The 400W at $4,000 is much easier to bite off than $7,000 for a 430W or $8,500+ for a 650. You'll be extremely happy with any of them.

As for layout, I like to have my primary stuff closest to my face, so EFIS come first, front and center and as high as I can get it, even if it requires some rib mod, then the GPS and radio left of center and low if possible because you don't want to have to raise your hand to the top of the panel that often, especially if bouncing around. You will be looking at the map on your EFIS, not on your IFR GPS, so having it close for easy reach but low works well.

Putting the EIS on the right side of the panel has worked well for me. You will only look at it if your EFIS fails, and even then you won't spend a lot of time looking at it, so with arms reach but not in center of vision should be fine.

You might even consider putting your radio under your EFIS and he your GPS tray below your backup EFIS and Nav display, with those side by side. Then you should have room for switches below them. I like my boost pump and flaps close to the throttle so I can easily reach them with my right hand with my hand on the throttle. I often put the boost pump between the throttle and prop or mixture controls. Flaps there would work well too.

Come up to Dunnellon and we can talk over the layout and compare to any of the 11 planes hat are in our hangar at he moment. Sometimes seeing what others have done can give a lot of good ideas.
 
Come up to Dunnellon and we can talk over the layout and compare to any of the 11 planes hat are in our hangar at he moment. Sometimes seeing what others have done can give a lot of good ideas.

Thanks Jesse, I may just use that as an excuse to go flying and take you up on it. Also good advice on the 400W, which I had been considering. Maybe I will go ahead and install a tray and connectors for it.

Thanks,

Chris
 
You're welcome any time. Please give me a call before you leave Clearwater to make sure I'm around.
 
I am not sure if the product list is what you already have or what you plan to get soon, but in any case, a few suggestions.

1. If you become space limited, there is no need to have the EIS on the panel. It can be mounted remotely and the SX can show engine data. You will want to add an AUX POWER source (2nd little battery with diode) to the SX for cranking.

2. If you do NOT have the D10 already (a breakthrough device in its time), the consider getting a GRT Mini. It will do all that the D10 will do **AND** if you end up with GRT servos for autopilot later, you can use it to drive them if the SX died.

3. I am a fan of audio panels if two radios. I do NOT have one in my plane and wish that I did. With the new electronics that beep and talk to you and with multiple radios it just makes life simpler.

4. Maybe move the D10 and CDI to the LEFT of the SX. Then move radios more to the left, closer to you. Move the ELT remote much closer to you, either on the left or at least in the center. If you ever need to press it in flight, you want it close by.

5. Plan for a second display even if you haven't won the lottery yet. It is a lot easier to do it now.

6. Make sure that if in bumpy weather and you are trying to push buttons on the GRT, that you cannot accidentally turn off some critical switch that is just below.

Take special heed to the comment about not having the key switch over switches.

Contact me off list as I am sometimes in Clearwater and can show you a panel in a 6 with some similar parts.
 
Most of the equipment listed I already have, usually thanks to a good deal in the VAF classified, so I will probably not be making any major changes there. I am trying for the most capable and modern panel I can make happen on a fireman's budget ;) I'd also rather put a few extra thousand into a new O-320 than a touch-screen gizmo.

Thanks again for all the advice, I have made some changes already.

Chris
 
One more suggestion. Get a hold of a 4xxW installation manual. There are some limits on how far away from the pilot's central view (e.g., the EFIS) you may mount the 4xxW (same rules for the 650) without extra annunciator lights, to meet the TSO requirements for ifr use. Now, I have seen installations that clearly did not meet these requirements, and I have never heard of a DAR or FAA inspector flagging this; but you do not want to be the first, either!
 
One other thought

Since you are going to have an electronic panel, you will want/need a way to get all those audio warnings into to your ear.

If the GTR 200 does not have audio inputs (The iCom's have multiple mono inputs.), someone on this forum makes a simple mixer that you will want to install. Hopefully someone will chime in with the device and a PIREP.
 
Since you are going to have an electronic panel, you will want/need a way to get all those audio warnings into to your ear.

If the GTR 200 does not have audio inputs (The iCom's have multiple mono inputs.), someone on this forum makes a simple mixer that you will want to install. Hopefully someone will chime in with the device and a PIREP.

I think in post #3 he said he already has a mixer.
 
replace all of the GRT stuff and all of the Garmin stuff with Skyview stuff ...

So you would give up a certified WAAS GPS, certified IFR database, put all your eggs in one legal basket of the VAL VOR/ILS for legal IFR navigation?

How about reading the OPs posts about his mission before spouting brand preference bilgewater. All three (plus more) are good companies with good products.
 
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Like it!

Chris,
Your panel design is very similar to what we ended up with in our RV9a during its panel redesign. I was very happy with the end result. With iPads so common now one big EFIS screen, a D10a-like device plus a Garmin 400w/430w/650/750 and an autopilot gives affordable options with redundancy. Have since sold that RV and miss it... but thankfully I now enjoy a GRT-equipped RV10. :D

Please checkout the before and after pics here:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=550214&postcount=637

I really liked having all switches used during flight *above* the the EFIS display. This placement reduces the likelihood of inadvertent switch changes while handling items in your lap or when pressing the buttons on the bottom of the display in turbulence, etc. It also keeps the switches in your scan more easily ...but maybe I'm the only schmuck who leaves the fuel pump/lights on longer than intended! Lastly, with a strip of lights underneath the glare shield, it gives great night readability to the switch labels there -- eliminating the need to search in the dark.

As you mentioned, you can only move the display so high while retaining some of the rib, but you can make good use of that top space with the switches. We did cut a fair notch in the rib for our tip-up. I forget how different the dimensions are on the Hx versus Sx; the Sx might have even more depth, IIRC. I fretted over not having the EFIS higher during design but ended up happy with it once flying.

We kept all switches used for ground operations (avionics master, etc) to the far left above the ignition and liked that setup. Stein has some nice locking switches for critical items, or a guard could help for extra protection, beyond physical separation.

For the instrument stack, I definitely recommend putting the EIS at the bottom. As mentioned it provides good redundancy but is also the most dated item in the panel. Relegating it to the bottom puts it in good reach and allows the eyes to focus on the nicer-looking items, those that should be more part of your in-flight scan.

(You could even consider rear-mounting the EIS as we did -- beveled edges gave it a nicer look, though tough to appreciate in the photo. Last aesthetic point... one continuous line across the top edge of the main items gives a professional look. Our D10a was a bit high in the end but I agree with this suggestion from a VAF member.)

Agree with adding at least one USB port. Keeping one of the cig lighters also helps for some items that come ready for that plug instead.

Don't forget the GRT EFIS gets nav data and other software updates via a USB plug on the back of the display. You can route a convenient extension cable facing down behind the panel (less work, and ok since it isn't really needed inflight), or panel mount if desired. Plan on something else for USB power.

Last recommendation -- best 30 bucks spent was a blank panel with actual-size prints of all avionics items taped to it. ;)

Long-winded 2 cents of mine, but hope that all makes sense. Hope you enjoy the panel designing and man-machine/human factors evaluation as much as I did in this process!
 
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