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Garmin G3X expert question

Warbirdsolutions

Active Member
Does Garmin offer a product to make the internal GPS on the G3X a WAAS capable GPS? Dynon offers such a product or at least that was what I was told so I thought Garmin might as well.
I currently have a GNS480 which I planned to use as the WAAS GPS source for the future ADS-B out requirement but I have just been told that it is not currently able to do this. Supposedly there is an upgrade in the works at Garmin for the GNS480 to make it WAAS capable for this future requirement ( I believe its called MOPS). If this is true can you give me a guess as to cost and time frame of the upgrade to the 480. To make matters probably worse, my unit is actually an Apollo CNX80 so if the above happens to be true, will it be applicable to the Apollo unit as well?
If the G3X can not be made MOPS WAAS capable by some peripheral device (other than GNS400, 430 or 530), are there any plans to make something that will in the foreseeable future?
Thanks very much,
Brad Hood
Dynamic Aerosport
 
Does Garmin offer a product to make the internal GPS on the G3X a WAAS capable GPS? Dynon offers such a product or at least that was what I was told so I thought Garmin might as well.
I currently have a GNS480 which I planned to use as the WAAS GPS source for the future ADS-B out requirement but I have just been told that it is not currently able to do this. Supposedly there is an upgrade in the works at Garmin for the GNS480 to make it WAAS capable for this future requirement ( I believe its called MOPS). If this is true can you give me a guess as to cost and time frame of the upgrade to the 480. To make matters probably worse, my unit is actually an Apollo CNX80 so if the above happens to be true, will it be applicable to the Apollo unit as well?
If the G3X can not be made MOPS WAAS capable by some peripheral device (other than GNS400, 430 or 530), are there any plans to make something that will in the foreseeable future?
Thanks very much,
Brad Hood
Dynamic Aerosport

Hello Brad,

The GPS receiver installed internal to every G3X display is already a WAAS GPS receiver and every one of these displays that has ever been shipped are likewise equipped with a WAAS GPS receiver.

We realize, however, that WAAS capability alone isn't really your question and you are asking if the WAAS GPS receiver inside the G3X display is or can be made to meet the requirements of FAR 91.227 as it relates to the position source requirements for ADS-B Out.

This is a very long story, and we could point you off to several previous threads, but we will try to make this short.

There are many requirements in FAR 91.227 relating to ADS-B Out, but this section defines the performance requirements:
(c) ADS-B Out Performance Requirements for NACP, NACV, NIC, SDA, and SIL--
(1) For aircraft broadcasting ADS-B Out as required under Sec. 91.225 (a) and (b)--
(i) The aircraft's NACP must be less than 0.05 nautical miles;
(ii) The aircraft's NACV must be less than 10 meters per second;
(iii) The aircraft's NIC must be less than 0.2 nautical miles;
(iv) The aircraft's SDA must be 2; and
(v) The aircraft's SIL must be 3.
(2) Changes in NACP, NACV, SDA, and SIL must be broadcast within 10 seconds.
(3) Changes in NIC must be broadcast within 12 seconds.

We highlighted what is probably the most important requirement as it relates to using a non-certified WAAS position source. While FAR 91.227 points to TSO?C166b and TSO?C154c to explain the meaning of "SDA = 2", Figure 9 of AC 20-165 makes it very clear.

A position source with an SDA of 2 must have less than a 10E-5 probability of failure causing transmission of false or misleading information and must have Level C hardware and software design assurance per DO-178B for software and DO-254 for hardware.

Sorry to give you a headache, but this is what those of us trying to use non-certified position sources are up against. Our non-certified position sources, while having very high performance, do not have Level C or higher hardware/software design assurance, so they don't presently meet the requirements of FAR 91.227 as required for 2020 compliance.

As you probably know, G3X systems without certified position sources (like GNS/GTN units) are transmitting ADS-B Out today with their internal WAAS GPS and GTX23ES or GTX330ES Mode S transponders and enjoying the benefits of ADS-B, but the SDA parameter is set to 0 (indicating non-certified design assurance). Perhaps the regulations will change by 2020 allowing VFR aircraft to continue to use non-certified position sources for ADS-B Out like we do today, but we don't know.

With regard to your question about the GNS480 software update, the GNS 480 software was updated in April 2015 to provide the ADS-B Out+ capability required to use it as a FAR 91.227 compliant position source. See this posting for details on the software versions.

Thanks,
Steve
 
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For the sake of accuracy and fairness:

The Dynon SkyView system is the same as the G3X in this area. We have a commercial WAAS GPS as part of our system, and while it is usable to activate ground stations to get accurate and complete ADS-B traffic, it is not certified and thus not currently 2020 compliant.

The nice thing about this situation is that our transponder is fully certified. So until December 2019, you can fly with this solution and get all the benefits of ADS-B. At that time, you can connect a certified/accepted GPS to the system, and in our opinion, GPS sources for ADS-B will be significantly less expensive 7 years from now.
 
Does a new 430W output SDA 2 and have level C hardware and software?

Thanks

Hello Jeff,

Yes, you may connect any GNS/GPS 400W/420W/430W or GTN 6XX/7XX series IFR Navigator with the latest software to a Garmin Mode S extended squitter transponder like the GTX23ES or GTX330ES and the resultant ADS-B out squitter meets all the requirements of FAR 91.227 to be 2020 compliant including SDA.

Thanks,
Steve
 
G3X Expert Question - Thanks

Steve,
Wow, sorry to have put you through that. I thought I had done a fair amount of research but I was obviously wrong. First, I didn't mean to imply I was comparing Garmin to Dynon as I intend to purchase the dual screen G3X system. I have never read anywhere that the internal GPS in the G3X is a WAAS system so I'm really glad to know that! I suppose the thing to do is wait a while and see if Garmin actually produces an upgrade to the Apollo CNX80.
Will an older GNS430W support the 2020 requirement? I'm sure you have covered this before but I haven't found it. Pretty confusing topic in it's entirety. Thanks very much for such a detailed explanation!
So does this mean the ground stations can tell the difference between Certified and non-Certified WAAS units?
Thanks again,
Brad
 
NEVER MIND THE GNS430W QUESTION

Steve,
You apparently answered my question to Jeff while I was in the middle of writing. Could I bother you for the GNS430W software number that is 2020 compliant?
Thanks again,
Brad
 
Steve,
Could I bother you for the GNS430W software number that is 2020 compliant?
Thanks again,
Brad

Hello Brad,

No bother at all.

Software Service Bulletin 1225B identifies the first 2020 compliant software for GNS 400W/500W Series Units. This is Main Software version 5.00 and GPS/WAAS Software Version 5.0.

SB 1225B was later superseded by SB 1317 for GNS 400W/500W Series Units with a Software Upgrade to Main Software Version 5.03 and GPS Software Version 5.0.

To answer your earlier question about whether the ground stations can tell the difference between certified and non-certified position sources, yes, the ground stations see the SDA parameter in your squitter and know if you are 2020 compliant with an SDA of 2 or if you are non-compliant with something less.

Today, ground stations do not deny any services (including TIS-B uplinks of Mode C traffic and ADS-R rebroadcast of ADS-B traffic) just because your position source is non-certified.

Just a reminder that FIS-B weather is broadcast to everyone, so this also has nothing to do with the design assurance of your position source.

Thanks,
Steve
 
Thanks Steve,

Ordered a new 430W from Stein a couple days ago, will send in my 330 to get it upgraded after the first of the year

Happy Thanksgiving.

Jeff
 
Thanks Steve. This is one of those questions that I think a lot of us have been trying to get a grip on, most of this year. With out getting into what or what not the "FAA" may or may not do over the next 7-8 years with this subject. Can you tell us if there is movement or a strong lobby to try and get this rule eased a bit were the current standards used in hardware of the G3X may be used for this reporting requirement. We all have seen this in the past with rule making. And, "yes that was a start" with the cost of electronics getting better all the time. Is it reasonable to be able to upgrade the G3X to meat the current standard set out for the rule as it stands today.
I hope to make it up to you for that bad start with a joke and beverage at a fly-in some day. Yours as always. R.E.A. III #80888
 
Thanks Steve. This is one of those questions that I think a lot of us have been trying to get a grip on, most of this year. With out getting into what or what not the "FAA" may or may not do over the next 7-8 years with this subject. Can you tell us if there is movement or a strong lobby to try and get this rule eased a bit were the current standards used in hardware of the G3X may be used for this reporting requirement. We all have seen this in the past with rule making. And, "yes that was a start" with the cost of electronics getting better all the time. Is it reasonable to be able to upgrade the G3X to meat the current standard set out for the rule as it stands today.
I hope to make it up to you for that bad start with a joke and beverage at a fly-in some day. Yours as always. R.E.A. III #80888

Hello Robert,

We believe the FAA understands the dilemma that VFR pilots face with regard to the current regulations requiring a certified position source, but we are not aware of any plans to change the regulations in this area.

While any G3X can be upgraded to include a certified position source like the GPS 400W and be made 2020 compliant, without a rule change it doesn't seem likely that the non-certified WAAS GPS built-into each G3X display will ever be compliant.

Thanks,
Steve
 
Hello Robert,

We believe the FAA understands the dilemma that VFR pilots face with regard to the current regulations requiring a certified position source, but we are not aware of any plans to change the regulations in this area.

While any G3X can be upgraded to include a certified position source like the GPS 400W and be made 2020 compliant, without a rule change it doesn't seem likely that the non-certified WAAS GPS built-into each G3X display will ever be compliant.

Thanks,
Steve

what does it entail to add a 400W to a flying dual G3X setup? (gad 29??? or not \) And will this alone satisfy the 2020 requirement as it stands today?
 
what does it entail to add a 400W to a flying dual G3X setup? (gad 29??? or not \) And will this alone satisfy the 2020 requirement as it stands today?

Hello Derek,

For your G3X system using a GSU 25 and GEA 24 (instead of a GSU 73), you would need to add a GAD 29 for the A429 connections for the GPS 400W.

Yes, with your existing GTX 23ES 1090 ES transponder and GDL 39R ADS-B traffic/weather receiver you have a fully functional ADS-B In/Out system, you just need to add the FAR 91.227 compliant position source and you are all set for 2020.

As shown in the installation manual, a single RS-232 interface between the GPS 400W and the GTX 23ES adds that data to your ADS-B Out squitter. The transponder will automatically choose the GPS 400W position data over the G3X non-certified position data when it sees that it is available.

Thanks,
Steve
 
GNS430 QUESTION FOR STEVE

Steve,
Will this GNS430W work for the FAR 2020 requirement: PN: 011-01060-00
Mod up to 19
SN: 23400725
Can you tell me above what SN the 430W is compatible with 2020 equipment please?
Thanks a million!
Brad
 
Steve,
Will this GNS430W work for the FAR 2020 requirement: PN: 011-01060-00
Mod up to 19
SN: 23400725
Can you tell me above what SN the 430W is compatible with 2020 equipment please?
Thanks a million!
Brad

Hello Brad,

You are welcome.

Any GNS 400W/500W unit, including your GNS 430W, may be up upgraded with Service Bulletin 1317 to Main Software V5.03/GPS Software V5.0 for ADS-B Out compliance with the 2020 mandate.

Thanks,
Steve
 
Service Bulletin 1317

Steve,
Is it necessary to send a 430W in to Garmin for this SB or can a Garmin dealer do it? Any idea what it costs to have this SB complied with?
Thanks again!
Brad
 
Steve,
Is it necessary to send a 430W in to Garmin for this SB or can a Garmin dealer do it? Any idea what it costs to have this SB complied with?
Thanks again!
Brad

Hello Brad,

This SB is completed at a Garmin Dealer. Here is a link to SB 1317 if you want to read the details.

It requires two software loader cards for which we charge a small deposit to the dealer, but we return the deposit when the cards are returned so there is no charge for the software.

Each dealer will likely want to charge some labor. Please contact a dealer for the labor estimate.

Thanks,
Steve
 
Thread drift Screen Cleaning

Sorry for the drift....
The manual is specific, DO NOT clean the screens (375s, 650s etc.) with window cleaner, especially anything with ammonia. The big box stores (specifically COSTCO) sell a spray cleaner for eyeglasses with antireflective coatings. Would that product be OK for the screens..... What really kills the antireflective coatings so I can stay away from it.

 
A damp microfiber cloth using distilled water works for me.

No way I am squirting any chemicals on my high dollar screens.

We had some "computer safe" screen wipes at work and after one use on some LCD screens, it damaged the coating on the screen. I will never trust that stuff!
 
A damp microfiber cloth using distilled water works for me.

No way I am squirting any chemicals on my high dollar screens.

We had some "computer safe" screen wipes at work and after one use on some LCD screens, it damaged the coating on the screen. I will never trust that stuff!

Thanks for that advice, I'll probably follow it, but I'm still curious what are the chemicals that kill the coatings (alcohol, ammonia etc. ?)
 
Trim indication

Is there any way to increase the display size of the trim indicator on the G3X?
In the same area is there any way to have some index markers on the trim display?
Thanks a lot,
Bill
 
Is there any way to increase the display size of the trim indicator on the G3X?
In the same area is there any way to have some index markers on the trim display?
Thanks a lot,
Bill

Bill, I'll try to answer your questions about the G3X but your best bet is to email directly to the GarminX guys. They might not see this post since it's a bit of a thread drift.

Anyway, the size of the trim display on the G3X is fixed and I don't know of any way to change that. You can, however, add tick marks to the trim display, say, for example, if you want to have a takeoff position for the pitch trim. You would go to the calibration menu, set the trim at the takeoff position, and then create a tick mark at that location.

See page 34-158 of the G3X Installation Manual, Rev AD, Trim/Flap Position Input Calibration, should be enough here to get you where you want to go.
 
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You can see a larger display of the trim on the MFD. go to the engine page and look for the trim option along the bottom. I don?t know of any way to increase the size of the indicator on the main PFD page.

Dave
N102FM
 
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