What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Please tell me I'm an idiot

rv8ch

Well Known Member
Patron
There have been some threads recently where people seemed to be unhappy when other forum members questioned the way that they have implemented something, or the device they installed or planned to install, or the decisions that they have made.

I get that human nature sometimes drives us to defend what we have done in the past. I get that many in aviation are very conservative. I get that experimental aviation is, well, for experimenting. Putting all these together will cause friction somewhere.

Sure, it feel great when people say "you're very smart" or "great idea" - but considering the unforgiving nature of our activity, I believe that sometimes we need to get some brutally honest feedback.

In all the cases I can recall, the person providing the feedback was doing it with positive intent, even if it might have landed badly with the target. People seem to genuinely want to help the other person, provide their experience, and ask clarifying questions. I don't see any malice in any of these things, even if they can sting from time to time when they are directed at you.

I don't have exceptionally thick skin, but I would like to formally give everyone permission to tell me I'm an idiot.
 
There's a certain amount of self-righteousness that tends to go along with being an expert in anything, especially on the internet. Seems to be as true of aviation forums as any other. This forum generally has less of that that other aviation forums, in my experience so far. I suspect that's at least partly due to "aggressive" moderation. Not that that's a bad thing, just sayin'
 
I don't have exceptionally thick skin, but I would like to formally give everyone permission to tell me I'm an idiot.

You're an idiot :D

sorry, couldn't resist. Well stated comments that I think help us all to re-think how we approach things in a physically disconnected world. It does seem that a lot gets lost in written communication compared to verbal, where we pick up a lot of clues to intent. Just thinking about the joke I just made and realize without hearing the tone of my voice makes it harder to be sure that it was intended as a joke.

Larry
 
Last edited:
If you're wondering whether or not you're an idiot - just ask the internet, they'll tell you for sure! :D
 
There have been some threads recently where people seemed to be unhappy when other forum members questioned the way that they have implemented something, or the device they installed or planned to install, or the decisions that they have made.

I get that human nature sometimes drives us to defend what we have done in the past. I get that many in aviation are very conservative. I get that experimental aviation is, well, for experimenting. Putting all these together will cause friction somewhere.

Sure, it feel great when people say "you're very smart" or "great idea" - but considering the unforgiving nature of our activity, I believe that sometimes we need to get some brutally honest feedback.

In all the cases I can recall, the person providing the feedback was doing it with positive intent, even if it might have landed badly with the target. People seem to genuinely want to help the other person, provide their experience, and ask clarifying questions. I don't see any malice in any of these things, even if they can sting from time to time when they are directed at you.

I don't have exceptionally thick skin, but I would like to formally give everyone permission to tell me I'm an idiot.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, and I give everyone the same permission! (I think I know the thread you're referring to, and the OP's response gave me chills, because I've seen that sort of attitude in so, so many accident reports.) I am a semi-expert in the field to which I've devoted my career, but that doesn't involve anything related to airplane building at all -- but even if it did, I'd STILL want people to tell me I'm wrong (or to question my decisions) whenever there's a potential issue.

After all, we're putting not only our lives on the line with these aircraft but also the lives of our passengers. Humility and openness to questions and constructive criticism is definitely the appropriate attitude, imho.
 
All kidding aside, I really enjoy how people on this forum seem to have no problem telling other people that they are, or are not, idiots. And in a very polite way.

There are a few threads a day asking "did I mess this up" or "does this look right to you" or "how does this fit with that" or "should I buy A or B" and people give each other brutally honest advice that "yes, you messed this up" or "no, that looks fine to me, build on" or "yes, you messed that up but it is an easy fix to correct it." All without calling each other names or resorting to any of the usual internet BS that normally goes along with back and forth debate about something.

Maybe this is why this is the non-work related website that I check more than any other.
 
Last edited:
Show me someone who hasn't been an idiot at some stage, nobody has cornered the market on not being an idiot:D
 
When I was growing up my Dad reminded me that if I only hung around people that agreed with me all the time I wouldn't learn very much. :)

As long as the criticism is constructive ...personally I welcome it. When your ideas are challenged you have two choices.....present an articulate and well thought out argument to support your position or rethink and change your position....both of these situations are part of growing in personal knowledge.....forums like this are wonderful opportunities for this to happen for everyone's benefit.
 
When I was growing up my Dad reminded me that if I only hung around people that agreed with me all the time I wouldn't learn very much. :)

As long as the criticism is constructive ...personally I welcome it. When your ideas are challenged you have two choices.....present an articulate and well thought out argument to support your position or rethink and change your position....both of these situations are part of growing in personal knowledge.....forums like this are wonderful opportunities for this to happen for everyone's benefit.

I agree. The resposes should encourage the builder to continue to ask. I know a few builders who prefer to ask personally rather than risk getting beat up.
 
You’re not an idiot Mickey - you’re just slow! ;)

(From a guy who started his RV-8 build in 2003 and poured over your web site as a guide for how to build the airframe.....and then had 2000 hours on his RV-8 when you finally flew!)
 
Expert

Expert: Someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing...

:D
 
There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers.

Dealing with discussions on the Internet is interesting. What took me some time to adjust to was group think, cliquishness/conversation dominance, self appointed experts (what's safe flying, what's appropriate flying technique, etc.). Kind of kills the fun of brainstorming ideas and sharing experiences when the same people dictate their beliefs or judgments over and over and over. And there are always those who make plain old sarcastic or nasty remarks that are not constructive observations at all. But that's life.
 
Last edited:
Good post!

As a frequent internet user and my go to place for information I assume I am an idiot until I gather enough information and multiple opinions. There is always that outlier user or opinion that can really mess with your head until you have vetted other opinions enough to feel less like an idiot. Sometimes that harsh feedback can also be the most valuable as difficult as it may be to hear.


As a new builder two things I have found to be true for me.
-this site is invaluable
-getting away from the internet and reaching out to fellow builders and manufacturers over the phone or in person is even more valuable.


Always be learning, admit when you are wrong and have thick skin.
 
are you pulling our leg Mickey :confused:

I’m privileged to know the OP personally, and can assure that A/, he ain’t, and B/, he is one of the nicest guy on the planet.
He is probably bored some, and daydreaming his next project :D
 
For me personally I REALLY appreciate all advice I can get in any form. But it goes both ways. As I appreciate advice I also expect the person giving me the advice to be civil if after considering it I ignore it. In particular in an experimental setting.

If people would always have listened to the experts what could or couldn't be done I am not sure if we would have adopted fire yet. E.g. All the experts with decades of experience told Musk that establishing a new car manufacturer in the US couldn't be done... .

I also generally stick with:

"If we have data, let’s look at data. If all we have are opinions, let’s go with mine."

So posts supporting the argument with links to actual data/studies/reports cary much more weight then comments like " I did this for 20 years ... ". not just for the OP but for everybody reading the thread later.

Oliver
 
I've read the other thread as well, and I can understand the OPs response. He posted a problem with his setup and it only took 2-3 responses for someone to question his entire build philosophy instead of answering the question he asked. I know the response was trying to be helpful, but there's a lot of anti-technology sentiment around airplanes and OP was probably tired of defending his choice of technology when he was just looking for help with his problem. I'm going to use the exact same setup he has, and my defense on why I went that way is because I've maxed out all 32 power pins in a VP-X pro and still have 16 additional circuit breakers. If I went completely "old reliable" I'd have 50 circuit breakers on my panel, which is insane.

If there's a question on electronic ignitions, there's always a response of "just use a mag". If there's a question on VP-X, there's always a response of "just use a CB". Just because OP didn't build an airplane the exact same way as you doesn't mean he's wrong, it just means he's going to have different problems, and posting here should get information on all types of problems, not just dismissal because he chose to go a different route than others.
 
I'm pretty sure if I just stop posting this thread could be deleted :D
But good luck with that.... Pis*ing people off is in my nature, and I'm darn good at it, just ask my wife. :eek:
I failed charm school miserably.

But really, not knowing *hit about VPX when I asked the question "Why does trim need to go thru the VPX in the first place?" I was not aware that VPX did trim mixing, so that was the simple answer to "why", if he just would have said that then I would have understood the why part. I've heard speed scheduling with the VPX/G3X combo could have issues.

But I really am a KISS guy, some folks planes get so complex it scares me, so I do usually ask "why" we did something that way.
I think RV's are pretty basic airplanes but they can be made so complicated with accessories that I feel like we need to have a week of familiarization training to operate/maintain some of them.

Most of the aircraft I work on have electrical/avionics problems (that's usually why they come see me), and I don't ever remember seeing a system schematic for any of them, so you gotta just figure em out. Makes my job near impossible with some of the complexity I'm seeing, kinda like working on a new car.

Ok, I'll go back and do some work now and quit posting and try to make a living, (no VPX in my newest panel job)!
 
Last edited:
I'm pretty sure if I just stop posting this thread could be deleted :D
But good luck with that.... Pis*ing people off is in my nature, and I'm darn good at it, just ask my wife. :eek:
I failed charm school miserably.
...
I think it's always valuable to have someone asking the "uncomfortable" questions, and challenging us. We're lucky to have this excellent forum where we can get the benefit of so much experience.
 
Deming . . .

...and as Deming stated; "Without data your just another person with an opinion."

I love that guy! A properly implemented six-sigma program is the next generation built on the solid Deming foundation.
 
I've got enough hours in my logbook (and on my RV build) now that I've come around to the point where some of the "opinions and advice" that I received during the build, and ignored, have come back to haunt me. I've changed some parts and pieces, and changed the way I use some of them. But most importantly I've changed the way I view input from others.

There's still a lot of trash that gets caught up in the input filter - but with more gray hairs on my head now I tend to think about them a bit more before dismissing them. Most of them are born of a bad experience somewhere, and while they may be delivered in a snarky and holier-than-thou manner it doesn't change the validity of the message.
 
In [omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent being] we trust...all others bring data.

My sincere apologies for the drift. Rambling to follow. Your current adoption is accurate and apropos but the most popular and probably original saying was:

"In God we Trust: All Others pay Cash"

At the beginning of the previous century, there was a reluctance to accept checks and later credit cards (now = crypto?).

A book by that title was the basis of the film, "A Christmas Story".

Don't know if film that ever made it to the CH or if the humor would translate.

There's also a good saying about Opinions and Cowboy Hats but it would get me thrown out of the forum.

Again, sorry for the drift. Cheers, boys.
 
Back
Top