RV hate

Wow, there's some serious RV hate going on here:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43567

http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=75644

generalizations and specifics

Sigh.

A few months ago, I was practicing stop-and-go's at South County Airport (E16). I was the only airplane in the pattern, but you never know when someone else is going to drop by, so I was calling downwind, base, final, and rolling for closed traffic for runway 32.

I fly fairly small patterns like many of us do, so base leg is not very much time before touchdown. I was just turning base when someone on the ground with a hand-held announced a high-performance airplane low pass on runway 14 (i.e., the opposite direction to the currently-used runway). I acknowledged and looked, but never saw the other airplane. This was really scaring me. I announced position again and commented that no other radio calls had been heard. Then, the answer I got back was an anonymous "strictly by the book" which I took the other pilot to mean that he felt what he did was totally acceptable, reasonable, proper.
JERK!

I don't know what aircraft type it was. Would I stereotype all pilots of that make? I don't think so.

There are some good points and there are some rants over there. They're everywhere..

I'm on a message board that is comprised of mostly airline pilots and there is lots of similar moaning about the C-150 in the pattern..

"Wow, there's some serious RV hate going on here..."

Those comments don't illustrate 'hate'. They do reflect frustration - and yes, also stereotyping - with the same hotdogging that Vans has spoken about at some length, twice recently, on the Vans Facebook page.

Jack

What's your point?

Cessna pilots hate Bonanza pilots, etc. There is not a thing you can do about hate except avoid it.

Bob Axsom

Certain operations draw attention.

It is legal and safe to walk around with a potato in the seat of my pants. It is even useful; I have a spare potato in case I need one. However, the reviews may not be positive.

DanH said:

Certain operations draw attention.

It is legal and safe to walk around with a potato in the seat of my pants. It is even useful; I have a spare potato in case I need one. However, the reviews may not be positive.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the image there, Dan.

The world is filled with love and hate, so what's new?

The RV is superior as a flying machine, no matter what anyone says or thinks.

Insight.

Ahh, You just have to love Dan's insight into a particular post.

In all reality, some of these pilots are right, however misguided. It is not RV pilots causing the problem. It is anyone that does not adhere to proper procedures. They are put in place for everyones safety, and if everyone follows them, safety would likely improve. I do not blame RV's, or Lancairs, or Cessnas, or even powered parachutes. It is the pilots flying them that bear the responsibility!

Be Safe.

It may be painful, but there is some truth to what is being said on those other forums.

I think we as RV drivers, and operators of high performance aircraft, owe it to ourselves and our flying community to act in a responsible manner and set the bar higher as professional pilots. We should also not be bashful and let our fellow RV drivers know if they are not setting a good example for the rest of us.

I happen to agree with this summary quoted from one of those threads:

COOL" is not showboating over a public airport.
"COOL" is not disregarding others in flight.
"COOL" is years of useful transport utility without hurting or bending anybody.
"Overhead Break" at a public airport.....not so much.

Just my opinion (flame suit on)

My hangar is near the run-up pad at the airport, and there is a sign by said paid which instructs pilots to avoid directing their prop blast at the hangars. Yet, several still do.

A little further down the taxi way, there is a sign saying that right-hand turn outs after taking off are prohibited, yet I regularly see planes take off and peel off to the right (which crosses the final approach path for the much-busier St. Paul Holmen rwy 34).

I frequently see folks do overhead approaches into South St. Paul, even when there is other traffic in the pattern.

They are all RVs. And Cessnas. And Pipers. And Bonanzas, Mooneys, Champs, and T6s. The common thing isn't the aircraft but rather that the aircraft are piloted by people. That's the only hard fact I can come up with, anything further is simply wild speculation. I would challenge anyone who says different to show me the data from which they draw their conclusions.

Walt said it very well.

Sure, we all know that it is the pilot doing the "stupid pilot tricks" that annoy (and frequently endanger) others, not the airplane. The truth is that there are more and more RV's out there flying more and more hours all the time. We are HIGHLY VISIBLE, and because the airplanes get talked up as "little fighters" and have all sorts of performance advantages, we are easy targets. Saying "well, there are bad Cessna drivers too..." is a poor defense - in fact, it is no defense at all, because it is a defacto admission that some of us ARE being less than courteous to others.

The other truth is that we can talk about this here all day long, but the folks giving us a bad reputation ( yes, we ARE getting a bad reputation because of the actions of a FEW) are not going to pay attention. Some are reading this right now and saying one of two things: (1)"They aren't really talking about me, I gave that Cessna plenty of room - if he didn't think it was enough, then he doesn't know how to fly"...or (2) "The heck with them all, I have the freedom to do whatever I want - I don't really care!" So we are preaching to the choir, because the rest are in denial.

We are becoming the "Outlaw Bikers" of the aviation world because of the actions of a few. The only way to stop it is to be BETTER than we have to be - and either correct or shun those who refuse to play nice with others. Or we accept the fact that we will all be painted as outlaws.

Paul

Ironflight said:

We are becoming the "Outlaw Bikers" of the aviation world because of the actions of a few. The only way to stop it is to be BETTER than we have to be - and either correct or shun those who refuse to play nice with others. Or we accept the fact that we will all be painted as outlaws.

Click to expand...

Yep......................I was getting awful ticked off at the AOPA forum, if the above link goes to that thread. I don't know, as I quit reading it. In reality, I'll even go back out and do a 360 for a "slug" Cessna flying a 747 pattern. I've never cut anybody off. I do tend to say things...........to irritate the other guy, after I get irked. However, I was really taken back, by the slew of comments directed to RV owners, builders, flyers in these forums. I suppose I've never been to areas where these thoughts exist on such a rampet scale. Or perhaps it's the thoughts of a highly vocal few, that dominate forums. I don't really know.

L.Adamson --- RV6A

I agree with Paul. I'd also like to point out that the actions of a few are painting us but also the hating is just coming from a few. In the second thread link, notice how many posts are coming from one individual (and, Larry, you really shouldn't egg him on). I fly with a lot of non-RV pilots and most find the RV interesting. Not everyone wants one but there doesn't seem to be a general air of denigration. While it is true that we are keepers of our reputation and should work to improve, as Paul said, I think we also need to grow a little more skin. I, for one, don't care at all for what Mr. Chien thinks, nor does my RV.

This sort of thing reminds me of my youngest son's little league team, which I coach. Runner on 2nd, no outs, kid up to bat that might be struggling hitting, we often gave batter signs to bunt. You would NOT BELIEVE how many parents in the stands on the other teams would call us cheaters because we did this! Its baseball folks! Just because A. the other team didn't give batters signals and B. the boys were taught how to bunt doesn't make us cheaters...rather we know full well all the tools available to score runs. Flying the overhead break, in essence, is no different. The vast majority of folks in the pattern don't know this is perfectly safe and legal to do, and they assume that we are cheating in the pattern. What we DO need to do is make a lot more radio calls in the pattern especially with other traffic present when doing the overhead so the folks who do not understand are not alarmed by it and are kept in the loop. Whenever I've led flights into the pattern for the overhead I make absolutely certain any traffic understands the flight's intentions in a courteous way. Have never had a problem.

Effective communication goes a LONG way in keeping everyone happy, and it shows class. When you blast into the pattern, and don't show some courtesy or regard to other aircraft, then this is what will get us unwanted attention.

Well put Walt...

Two observations:

In general, the "RV hate" we see in the linked threads is really no different than the "spam can hate" we display here. After all, everyone knows that "they" all fly bomber paterns, land on the first brick, and roll the entire length of the runway. Is this behavior any less rude (or safe) than an admittedly poorly understood military style overhead pattern? I doubt it.

Second, I noticed one of the posters on the "hater" board was complaining that the overhead took more time and was more dangerous than a "straight in"... So he was in essence advocating one "non standard" approach over another - Hello kettle... pot calling.

Can we be better behaved? Absolutely! And we should... But we should also keep things in perspective a little and realize that you can't please everyone. There is a segment of the population that just likes to be "The Authority" and that is not going to change no matter how well behaved we are.

Overhead patterns requested/approved and flown at a towered field are OK. At uncontrolled fields, they should be done with caution making sure there won't be any conflict with other acft in the pattern.

In any case, flying an overhead pattern - depending on how its done - can be an invitation to a flying style that someone could interpret as aerobatic (as defined by the FAA) and you know what that can lead to! (ask me how I know) So my advise is to be careful in the O/H.

Bill Wightman said:

Overhead patterns requested/approved and flown at a towered field are OK. At uncontrolled fields, they should be done with caution making sure there won't be any conflict with other acft in the pattern.

In any case, flying an overhead pattern - depending on how its done - can be an invitation to a flying style that someone could interpret as aerobatic (as defined by the FAA) and you know what that can lead to! (ask me how I know) So my advise is to be careful in the O/H.

Click to expand...

Boy, we don't need to rehash this whole argument again!

[ed. If it'll help, I'll go ahead and invoke Godwin's Law in order to jump to its inevitable ending: "Hitler". dr
(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law]

I enter the pattern (RV9A) at 85 MPH and slow to 70 MPH on final. I guess that puts me in the spam can 747 group, and I fly the pattern pretty much like I did in my 172. I haven't heard any complaints yet but there are no other RV's landing here very often. I guess my point is, if there is one, it would tick me off too if a hot rod did an overhead break in the middle of my pattern regardless of what he or she was flying.

I'm with Walt and Paul.

*sigh*

Well, after wading through all pages of both quoted threads, I came to some conclusions that I would like to share:

1) I am surprised at the degree of acrimony expressed toward RVs and RV builders/pilots on both threads

2) I am very surprised that the AOPA board is apparently not very well monitored

3) I am saddened to accept some of the derogatory comments directed toward our community as accurate reflections of the actions and attitudes of a few (although I have yet to meet any or witness their brazen actions)

4) I am VERY thankful for Doug's pit bull-esque editorial discipline on VAF, although I always resent it whenever he edits MY posts

5) I now know that, because I have a military paint scheme on Smokey AND have continued that theme to the cockpit, there are other pilots out there who are not only NOT impressed, but have already condemned me as being a wannabe and therefore part of the problem

6) I accept the challenge to elevate my aviating skills and go the extra yard to avoid being part of the perceived problem among the GA population

I could probably come up with more, but I'm always a bit verbose anyway, so I will spare my friends from my ramblings. However, the threads took me aback a bit.

Yeah, Smokey is my little fighter. I love the speed, the agility and the responsiveness, but I don't do low passes or buzz jobs, I fly normal pattern entries and think of myself as a courteous, conscientious pilot. I like doing what little aerobatics I do and would like to do more. I used to enjoy flying simple formations in my Yankee, and thought I might like doing RV formations. If I screw up when flying, I hope somebody takes the time to pull me aside and have a little chat with me about it.

At our little airport, there are only 3 RVs. Low passes and hangar buzz jobs are few and far between, and never by the RVs (that I've ever witnessed). Hanging around this forum, I see nothing but concern for safety and a general commitment to improvement of flying skills, thus it is very disappointing for me to read such condemnation from fellow aircraft owners and pilots.

I'll let others join those forums and defend our community. I think I'll just work on being the safest RV driver I can be while still enjoying the art of flying.

Thanks for posting those links.

Walt said:

It may be painful, but there is some truth to what is being said on those other forums.

I think we as RV drivers, and operators of high performance aircraft, owe it to ourselves and our flying community to act in a responsible manner and set the bar higher as professional pilots. We should also not be bashful and let our fellow RV drivers know if they are not setting a good example for the rest of us.

I happen to agree with this summary quoted from one of those threads:

COOL" is not showboating over a public airport.
"COOL" is not disregarding others in flight.
"COOL" is years of useful transport utility without hurting or bending anybody.
"Overhead Break" at a public airport.....not so much.

Just my opinion (flame suit on)

Click to expand...

Absolutely spot on. The coolest guys in the room, to me, were always the ones that flew to the rules, and conservatively... but I knew could ride an airplane like the owned it when need be. I had a commanding officer that was the quietest most laid back guy in the bar. You'd never have known he was a fighter pilot unless someone pointed it out, but you stick him in the jet and he was absolutely lethal. Going out to fight him just wasn't fun.

rv9aviator said:

... I guess my point is, if there is one, it would tick me off too if a hot rod did an overhead break in the middle of my pattern regardless of what he or she was flying.

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First off, no one should cut anyone off. Done properly, an overhead will sequence right into the traffic flow just like a standard 45 degree will. After all, it's "our" pattern, right?

Second, while you commented on your entry speed, do you fly an unusually large pattern like the flight schools use, resulting in a 3 mile final at 70% power? That's the "747" or "bomber" patern that makes the rest of us cringe. If so, then you illustrate my point: We are not going to make everyone happy, no matter what.

based on my observations, while renting other aircraft and flying patterns, etc, unfortunately the RV guys do tend to earn this reputation

I've never been enraged enough to track down tail numbers or post on a forum about my encounters, but I've witnessed quite a few careless antics and it made me cringe each time the call sign revealed they were indeed an RV

N8RV said:

Well, after wading through all pages of both quoted threads, I came to some conclusions that I would like to share:

1) I am surprised at the degree of acrimony expressed toward RVs and RV builders/pilots on both threads

2) I am very surprised that the AOPA board is apparently not very well monitored

3) I am saddened to accept some of the derogatory comments directed toward our community as accurate reflections of the actions and attitudes of a few (although I have yet to meet any or witness their brazen actions)

4) I am VERY thankful for Doug's pit bull-esque editorial discipline on VAF, although I always resent it whenever he edits MY posts

5) I now know that, because I have a military paint scheme on Smokey AND have continued that theme to the cockpit, there are other pilots out there who are not only NOT impressed, but have already condemned me as being a wannabe and therefore part of the problem

6) I accept the challenge to elevate my aviating skills and go the extra yard to avoid being part of the perceived problem among the GA population

I could probably come up with more, but I'm always a bit verbose anyway, so I will spare my friends from my ramblings. However, the threads took me aback a bit.

Yeah, Smokey is my little fighter. I love the speed, the agility and the responsiveness, but I don't do low passes or buzz jobs, I fly normal pattern entries and think of myself as a courteous, conscientious pilot. I like doing what little aerobatics I do and would like to do more. I used to enjoy flying simple formations in my Yankee, and thought I might like doing RV formations. If I screw up when flying, I hope somebody takes the time to pull me aside and have a little chat with me about it.

At our little airport, there are only 3 RVs. Low passes and hangar buzz jobs are few and far between, and never by the RVs (that I've ever witnessed). Hanging around this forum, I see nothing but concern for safety and a general commitment to improvement of flying skills, thus it is very disappointing for me to read such condemnation from fellow aircraft owners and pilots.

I'll let others join those forums and defend our community. I think I'll just work on being the safest RV driver I can be while still enjoying the art of flying.

Thanks for posting those links.

Click to expand...

Don...........you the MAN!

Yep!

Jack Tyler said:

"Wow, there's some serious RV hate going on here..."

Those comments don't illustrate 'hate'. They do reflect frustration - and yes, also stereotyping - with the same hotdogging that Vans has spoken about at some length, twice recently, on the Vans Facebook page.

Jack

Click to expand...

+1

Carry on!
Mark

Jack Tyler said:

Those comments don't illustrate 'hate'. They do reflect frustration - and yes, also stereotyping - with the same hotdogging that Vans has spoken about at some length, twice recently, on the Vans Facebook page.

Click to expand...

Agree. "Hate" was used in the urban street sense of the word. Yes, it's a generational thing.

I didn't mean to imply the airport was mine when I am in the pattern. I fly a pattern that will let me make the runway if I lose power from the downwind leg so I guess I don't fly a 747 pattern but some might think so. It's all in the other pilot's perception. I always made a point of staying clear of the pattern when other faster planes are close out of courtesy when I was flying a 172 and I guess I still do even though I can come in much faster if I choose. It's all good, but bad manners are just that. IMHO.

Jim - I'm sure you didn't mean to imply it was YOUR pattern but I asked because many people who complain about one procedure or another, particularly the OH entry feel as if somehow they are being imposed upon even if the maneuver provided plenty of interval and was perfectly safe. I was yelled at once by a C152 CFI for "cutting him off" in the pattern. He was on crosswind (about 2 miles from the departure end practicing to fly the 777 I think) and I broke just beyond the approach numbers so considering a 6000 ft runway we had 3 miles of separation - OMG!. I was on final before he was even really on a downwind. Laws of physics prevented any sorta conflict he was so far away. His comfort zone was huge (the entire pattern). I ignored him and couldn't care less if he doesn't like me or RVs. I was safe, courteous and communicated my intentions starting 10 miles out. Not everyone is going to be happy with us, nor do I care. I follow the regs and fly safely but in a way which is fun too - if the other guy doesn't like it he should learn to knit.

Is this a bad attitude? Ooops

Since we've been outted I have been trying to change my avatar to this:

Can somebody help with this?

All joking aside, I have read most of the posts listed in the threads. I want to be a good, conscientious pilot regardless of the ship I command. There are times when the protocol should be followed to the letter and there are times when that is unnecessary and inefficient. Aviation is a fluid environment, changing all the time, and as such, pilots must also make adjustments.

I do however think there IS hate injected in several of the comments. Mr. McCormack started his rant somewhat objectively, which is the only way to gain a positive response from people whom you oppose. So I wanted to hear what he had to say and will try to be part of the solution vs the problem. (Although, he did take a few objectionable jabs)

Clearly, Mr. Chien has an axe to grind with RV drivers. Is he REALLY an educated DOCTOR AND Moderator on the AOPA forum? I would think his stature would demand a higher level of class. Even in his own forum and area of expertise he doesn't come off as objective. Seems to me he enjoys power and likes to throw his weight around on internet forums. He made no attempt to educate...just bash. If a Chevy cut me off on the highway, I wouldn't go to the internet to bash all Chevy drivers. There are A LOT of Chevy's out there so odds are you have had a Chevy cut you off. Appearantly, there are A LOT of RV's in Mr. Chien's airspace.

I am not posting to defend careless or reckless manuevers but let's take a look a one of thier major gripes. The overhead pattern. The overhead pattern was developed for a multitude of reasons which I won't explain here but there is nothing UNSAFE or reckless about it. It is also not a WWII era manuever for old radial engine aircraft as was posted by somebody in one of those threads. I work F-16s daily that perform the manuever. I have also worked C130s, C17s, DC10s and even C172s via the overhead. In its simplest form, the aircraft or flight enter the OVERHEAD (at the initial point which looks like a high 2 mile final) ABOVE (usually 500") the rectangular pattern. There they can see all of the existing traffic and adjust the break turn accordingly. In the absence of any traffic they will break (usually left) over the numbers and start a descending 360 degree turn to final. If there IS traffic, they can adjust the break point to be midfield, departure end or even beyond departure end to accomodate other users. RVs are typically faster than many of the other single engine "flat-fours" flying the pattern so it can be argued the OVERHEAD is a SAFER approach to entering traffic pattern.

In closing, those threads got me fired up and I don't even do aerobatics or overhead approaches. I wanted to jump in there and defend RVs like Mr Adamson did but the only thing it would accomplish is bringing about more HATE from a few people who agree with Mr. Chien. The part that really shocked me was the media-like assumptions made on the part of a fellow aviator about a tragic event. That to me spells HATE and PREJUDICE.

RV8R999 said:

Is this a bad attitude? Ooops

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Not at all. I love my potato too.

and here I was going to bake some potato for dinner tonight but have now changed to rice

I think a lot of this comes from the amount of hours most RV's fly. MOST RV owners fly their planes on a very regular basis say 75-100... some 150 hours a year. RV's get seen and heard a lot in the pattern due to the amount most are flown. Now you've got the pilot in the 152, 172 or equivalent out on the weekend for an hour and many fly 5 or so hours a year. There is a huge difference in pilot proficiency here. Most RV pilots are just trying to be safe and stay the heck out of their way.

WOW...

I'll admit that sometimes I've felt overcensored on this forum, but holy cow... VAF sure is a class act compared to the AOPA board! We do have our moments, but thank you, VAF moderators, for not allowing us to degenerate into the deeply hateful spirals seen in other online venues. The thing that scares me is that AOPA is supposed to be the Voice of General Aviation.

I get the strong impression that POA and AOPA forums don't have a lot of respect for us Experimental types in general. The more prolific posters always downplay any sensible advice we can provide given the more extensive knowledge and research we do into most subjects. Usually ends up with "take it to a shop" or certified is the only way to go...etc.

On the other hand the only time I've ever had a plane do an unannounced low pass over the runway, from behind trees at that end, while I was announcing taking the active......was an RV.....

And for the record, while learning and doing solo practice at Chico, many years ago, I correctly announced all the parts of my pattern and turned final to see an unannounced commuter jet touching down on the opposite end, downwind... So I guess they have 'em too.

When people are saying bad things about an individual or group, one of the following tends to happen:

Which one are we?

I have witnessed several goofball moments from RVers. Most recently it was at a fly-in in north Georgia where a guy in an RV-6A took off with a teenage girl and proceeded to perform 500ft AGL acro with her over the runway, over the fly-in crowd, etc.

I also saw an RV formation bust into a very busy traffic pattern at a non-towered airport with seemingly zero regard for the other airplanes that were there. I was on the ground watching and listening to the radio. Afterward I watched as one of the members of the RV flight chewed out one of the spam can drivers for not knowing what was going on.

Bone heads like that make us all look bad.

The fact is that RVs will attract the reckless and showboat crowd due to the marriage of performance and affordability. These folks are not doing us any favors.

Jamie -- Nomex flame suit donned.

The AOPA Forums - a waste of my time

I have been an AOPA member since '84 and am proud to be a member. I intend to continue my AOPA membership and participate in several of their benefits. Some of you know me as a "poster boy" for their medical program because of my successful heart surgery.

When I found the AOPA forums several years ago, it didn't take me but maybe two days to realize that it was a waste of my time to wade through the arrogant and condescending comments from one source, who I found out later was a Senior AME and apparently one of the "moderators" of that forum. So I have not even logged in on the AOPA forums in years. (P.S. It is interesting to me that someone from my home airport sent that guy a "PM" yesterday and then he posted their PM and their identity in one of his posts!!! Talk about Forum Etiquette being ignored!)

I read in a book this weekend that licensed pilots amount to only 0.2 % of the U.S. population (600,000 of 310,000,000). It saddens me that we pilots can't seem to "get along."

Jamie said:

I also saw an RV formation bust into a very busy traffic pattern at a non-towered airport with seemingly zero regard for the other airplanes that were there. I was on the ground watching and listening to the radio. Afterward I watched as one of the members of the RV flight chewed out one of the spam can drivers for not knowing what was going on.

Bone heads like that make us all look bad.

Click to expand...

I think we've been witnessing the same group/individuals here locally

Get most of the POA and AOPA whiners on the couch, and I'll bet most will confess to being simply green with envy and RV lust.

One thing we can do is not rub fur the wrong way: stop using "experimental" on the radio. A good many spammers haven't a clue why RVs are experimental vs standard, and it adds nothing for type identification in the all-important matter of traffic integration and separation. Let's not sound arrogant.

Oh, yeah. I've dropped "experimental" from initial ATC calls, simply saying RV N..... Like everyone else, they know what an RV is and nobody complains about ignoring this aeronautical blue law.

John Siebold

tkatc said:

. . . In closing, those threads got me fired up and I don't even do aerobatics or overhead approaches. I wanted to jump in there and defend RVs like Mr Adamson did but the only thing it would accomplish is bringing about more HATE from a few people who agree with Mr. Chien. The part that really shocked me was the media-like assumptions made on the part of a fellow aviator about a tragic event. That to me spells HATE and PREJUDICE.

Click to expand...

Yes, indeed. I have the same sentiments. I do not fly aerobatics nor do overhead breaks. However, I am afraid I was not able to show the level of restraint you have done. I did jump in. I do tend to hold strong opinions and am willing to voice them. Most of the time I can withstand the urge to call someone a "MORON". It sure would be nice to have had such restraint in this instance as I am now feeling some of the animosity that was being directed toward Mr. Adamson on the AOPA thread. My mistake for thinking I should post my thoughts.

The atmosphere on the AOPA forum sure makes me want to keep reading and posting on their site, NOT! I cannot think of any reason for my posts not to be my first and last ones on the AOPA forum. Reminded me of some of the political garbage "replies" I read on some of the news websites after some post about the economy. I have never felt the urge to post anything on those reply threads on msn.com, cnbc, etc. I am beginning to feel the same way now about AOPA. Hmmm

Although the RV design is quite safe and the vast majority of RV pilots are safe and conscientious, we do have a dark side which is evident in the accident listings on the site link below. No matter how we slice it, there is a disproportionate amount of low level aerobatic accidents and mid airs.

http://www.rvflightsafety.org/

RV7ator said:

Oh, yeah. I've dropped "experimental" from initial ATC calls, simply saying RV N..... Like everyone else, they know what an RV is and nobody complains about ignoring this aeronautical blue law.

Click to expand...

I believe that using "Experimental" is only for initial TOWER contact. It should be eliminated anyway.

The Overhead is an acceptable entry if other aircraft in the pattern get priority. I do believe that some use it even when it takes longer to accomplish...eg, arriving from the south and going suitably far north to set up for the south runway.

"experimental" on first contact

RV7ator said:

Oh, yeah. I've dropped "experimental" from initial ATC calls, simply saying RV N..... Like everyone else, they know what an RV is and nobody complains about ignoring this aeronautical blue law.

John Siebold

Click to expand...

My operating limitations require me to identify myself as experimental upon initial contact with ATC. Don't yours?

Ron Lee said:

....The Overhead is an acceptable entry if other aircraft in the pattern get priority. I do believe that some use it even when it takes longer to accomplish...eg, arriving from the south and going suitably far north to set up for the south runway.

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Acceptable by the fact it is not prohibited by the FARs, rather than it being listed as recommended, or even described, in the AIM for non-towered airports.

The "priority" bit is in the FARs.

The word "acceptable" is a bit ambiguous in your statement...

Thank God I'm an RV gal!

I went over to the AOPA forum and breeze through the postings. I doubt that I'll ever visit those forums again. What a terribly reflection on the pilot community! It's an awfully executed venue that makes me shameful to be an AOPA member! Loads of profanity and character assassination. Wild (and pretty consistently incorrect) assertions. Several people would (thankfully!) be booted out of this site for their posts.

VAF has several threads skirting around the same issue as the AOPA site and I'm proud of our group's restraint and self-discipline. The AOPA posters talk about RVers lacking discipline while most of the most vocal posters on that site show no discipline (or critical thinking) in their posts.

And, dare I say it? It got me thinking about the following observation:
1. Every pilot that I've ever seen do an intentional stupid pilot trick (in an RV or otherwise) was male (and caucasian, for that matter).
2. Every incident mentioned in the AOPA thread of a pilot causing a crash or incident was a male.
3. Every mean, thoughtless post I've ever read on VAF or the AOPA site has appeared to come from a male.

Maybe the FAA should be looking at doing something about male pilots instead of E-AB pilots/builders!

Nah, I want to keep all you good, conscientous pilots around. Instead let's all try to be the best we can be, including as courteous as we can be to others in the pattern and at the airport. Let's all consider ourselves ambassadors for RVs and flying, in general. If we have to rely on most of those guys posting on the AOPA site, the community of pilots is in deep trouble.

Thank you, VAF moderators, for keeping this a site that doesn't drive away everyone who doesn't think getting into fights is the best form of recreation. And, thank you posters for accepting the restraints we live with in this venue and keeping the discussions lively and respectful.....most of the time. And, thank you Dan Horton for the potato image that will keep popping into my mind for the next few days.

For those few who want to say whatever they want whenever they want, boy do I have a forum for you!

cause the gals are cooking our breakfast and getting the beer cold! OMG I'm a dead man...

seriously joking

Yay Louise! Girls Rule!!

So, as an AOPA member, how does one go about filing a formal complaint about "my" AOPA forum and the horrible job the moderators are doing? I think we can all agree that this form of "discussion" by a few (insert offensive name here)s paints a negative picture of ALL aviators, and as an AOPA member I'm offended that they'd allow such a thing to go on in view of public eyes.

Found this on the forum: "The best way to contact AOPA management or an executive staff member is to email [email protected]."

Perhaps an email to them from our group of 14,000+ AOPA members/potential members... They have a set of forum rules which reads something similar to ours about vulgarity, hateful attitude, etc. It's obviously not being followed today.

What to do...what to do...

I guess there are a couple of forces at play here. A combination of some RV airplane envy and some unprofessional and irresponsible flying exhibitions. I have a suggestion that may pay some dividends. The dividends are the potential to increase safety, set a good flying example and lower our RV insurance rates. How to do that you rightfully ask. First let me give you a short story about a bad airport practice and the result. A few months ago one midmorning I was sitting with a group of airport bums grumbling about the broken ceiling which grounded my aerobatic aircraft. The airport flight school had launched three or four ships to do practice GPS approaches. Earlier that morning one of the ?bums? launched in his warbird and when he returned we watched him perform an approach that was part ?overhead? and part ?plummet thru the broken ceiling.? He cut off one of the instructor-student flights. The instructor complained to the FAA and our friend was granted an audience with the Feds. Upon his return he complained about being ?ratted out? and much to my surprise and satisfaction our entire group told him that had the school not complained we would have done it for them. Since then his flying has been in conformance with safe practices as far as our local airport is concerned. So it seems he got the point. Ideally there is some action that is effective but lies short of bringing in the Feds. That may be ?social ostricization.? Social ostracization does work for example, the anti-smoking campaign. I believe it is best that we police our own. If you see a RV misbehaving confront him. If the miscreant is a chronic violator and rebuffs your advice then turn his arse in put his tail number and complaint in the Vans Forum. I anticipate the feeling that no one likes to be a snitch. However, I offer these two points for your consideration. The feds ominously told Van et al that if we don?t fix the problem they will. Second, every time there is an incident/accident our insurance rates go up. I don?t know about you but the thought of some pud-knocker taking money out of my pocket because of his lack of professionalism or concern for others is intolerable. Wouldn?t it be nice if our reputation matured from whatever it is currently to one of ?airplane AND professionalism? envy.

KatieB said:

Yay Louise! Girls Rule!!

So, as an AOPA member, how does one go about filing a formal complaint about "my" AOPA forum and the horrible job the moderators are doing? I think we can all agree that this form of "discussion" by a few (insert offensive name here)s paints a negative picture of ALL aviators, and as an AOPA member I'm offended that they'd allow such a thing to go on in view of public eyes.

Click to expand...

I wish you luck with that thought and endeavor. I have found bureaucracies tend to have problems with accepting cultural change from the masses such as you are proposing. They tend to be dictatorial in nature rather than representative in nature. And don't think for a minute that AOPA is not a large bureaucracy. It is as closely tied to our Washington bureaucrats as any political organization you can think of. Perhaps there may be a high level bureaucrat listening in on this and/or other threads that may take it upon himself to make a change but I sure wouldn't be holding my breath for the results to come in on that one.