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  #21  
Old 09-21-2022, 06:12 PM
Walt's Avatar
Walt Walt is offline
 
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Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 7,003
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The roll pin, which is what you go through is one piece, are you calling the hole in the roll pin the core?
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Walt Aronow, DFW, TX (52F)

EXP Aircraft Services LLC
Specializing in RV Condition Inspections, Maintenance, Avionics Upgrades
Dynamic Prop Balancing, Pitot-Static Altmeter/Transponder Certification
FAA Certified Repair Station, AP/IA/FCC GROL, EAA Technical Counselor
Authorized Garmin G3X Dealer/Installer
RV7A built 2004, 2000+ hrs, New Titan IO-370, Bendix Mags, MTV-9 prop
Website: ExpAircraft.com, Email: walt@expaircraft.com, Cell: 972-746-5154
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  #22  
Old 09-21-2022, 06:22 PM
Scott Hersha Scott Hersha is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 2,527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
I hate to recommend throwing someone else’s money at a problem, but I can tell you that using the Safety Cable tool and cables make prop wiring way easier! The cables are braided, so they are very flexible, and easy to poke through no matter how the bolt gets oriented. Then you just pull it tight through the other one, pop the tool on, squeeze - and you’re done.

However…expect to pay $350 for the tool, plus more for the cables, so figure out what you’re time and frustration is worth….

Paul
The torque the nut, loosen, insert the wire, then re-torque method has always worked for me, but the safety cable is way easier. While working for GE in flight ops support, I took a safety wire class (I took every class that was offered to me). We used the safety cables - which GE invented out of necessity. Tracking bits and pieces of clipped off safety wire became a QC nightmare. Every piece of used safety wire had to be accounted for in a jet engine. Hence the safety cable - FAA approved. I bought mine from DMC, and purchased the cables/ferrules online at Amazon. The nose piece is important. Mine is 7”, but sometimes I wish it was shorter. They were about $180 each for the nose piece when I bought mine a few years ago. If you want a different size cable (like .040) that’s a different nose piece. It ain’t cheap, but one per airport, if everyone is friendly and respective, is plenty. I don’t think you can wear this tool out. A local chapter should have one for its members to use.
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SH
RV6/2001 built 2000/sold 2005
RV8 Fastback/2008 built/sold 2015
RV4/bought 2016/sold/2017
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RV4/bought 2019/sold2021
RV6/August 2022 build - Flying
Cincinnati, OH/KHAO
DEC2022
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  #23  
Old 09-21-2022, 06:31 PM
Flying Canuck Flying Canuck is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Red Deer, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post
The roll pin, which is what you go through is one piece, are you calling the hole in the roll pin the core?
No doubt I'm using incorrect terminology. I'll try to describe it better. Start with a threaded 7/16 rod with a hole drilled through one end. Then take a 7/16" nut (3/4" hex) and cut a channel across one face. Then put the nut on the end of the thread with the channel in line with the hole in the rod. Finally insert short tubes in the channel, one on either side of the threaded rod. This is what it appears that I have. I don't think the tube (roll pin?) goes through the hole in the rod. I didn't make this, it is what came with the propeller.

What I cannot do is get the safety wire through the threaded rod, it appears misaligned. I get into the tube on the one side and it is a solid wall with only enough opening to just get 0.025" into the core.

Again, I'm probably wrong with my description. I may have to take a trip out to the airport to look again. I'll try backing one off to see if realignment happens.
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Claude Pitre
RV-9A #91081, C-GCPT
Dynon SkyView HDX, IO-320 and WW 200RV C/S. Flying as of August 6, 2018

Added GPS 175 and authorized for IFR April 1, 2021

Interactive map of all of my flights here
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  #24  
Old 09-21-2022, 07:01 PM
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Walt Walt is offline
 
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Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Canuck View Post
No doubt I'm using incorrect terminology. I'll try to describe it better. Start with a threaded 7/16 rod with a hole drilled through one end. Then take a 7/16" nut (3/4" hex) and cut a channel across one face. Then put the nut on the end of the thread with the channel in line with the hole in the rod. Finally insert short tubes in the channel, one on either side of the threaded rod. This is what it appears that I have. I don't think the tube (roll pin?) goes through the hole in the rod. I didn't make this, it is what came with the propeller.

What I cannot do is get the safety wire through the threaded rod, it appears misaligned. I get into the tube on the one side and it is a solid wall with only enough opening to just get 0.025" into the core.

Again, I'm probably wrong with my description. I may have to take a trip out to the airport to look again. I'll try backing one off to see if realignment happens.
Unless the roll pins got bent from over torquing I can’t see how that could be, the roll pins are one piece and go all the thru ‘assuming’ WW does it like everyone else which I think they do.
PS; make sure you’re not pushing the wire into the slot in the nut instead of the center of the roll pin.
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Walt Aronow, DFW, TX (52F)

EXP Aircraft Services LLC
Specializing in RV Condition Inspections, Maintenance, Avionics Upgrades
Dynamic Prop Balancing, Pitot-Static Altmeter/Transponder Certification
FAA Certified Repair Station, AP/IA/FCC GROL, EAA Technical Counselor
Authorized Garmin G3X Dealer/Installer
RV7A built 2004, 2000+ hrs, New Titan IO-370, Bendix Mags, MTV-9 prop
Website: ExpAircraft.com, Email: walt@expaircraft.com, Cell: 972-746-5154
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  #25  
Old 09-21-2022, 10:38 PM
Flying Canuck Flying Canuck is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Red Deer, Alberta, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post
Unless the roll pins got bent from over torquing I can’t see how that could be, the roll pins are one piece and go all the thru ‘assuming’ WW does it like everyone else which I think they do.
PS; make sure you’re not pushing the wire into the slot in the nut instead of the center of the roll pin.
I went out to check tonight and yes, it does look like the roll pins go all the way through. Most of them are completely or nearly completely blocked. I'm attaching some pictures I took of 3 of them, I can see light easily through one - the same one I'd actually been able to get a wire through - the others not at all at any camera angle.

I tried backing off and feeding the safety wire and had no success whatsoever. I don't see any way that I can physically safety these bolts. Unfortunately these are not field replaceable. We backed off all 6 bolts and torqued them to the specified 47 ft-lb. Very secure. I'm inclined to fly them like that and ensure that I get a torque wrench on them every 50 hours which is the specified interval. Although I think it's an error, but the installation manual doesn't say anything about safety wiring the flange bolts on a 2 piece rear bulkhead (it does for the single piece) - it doesn't say anything about installing the bolts either though.
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Claude Pitre
RV-9A #91081, C-GCPT
Dynon SkyView HDX, IO-320 and WW 200RV C/S. Flying as of August 6, 2018

Added GPS 175 and authorized for IFR April 1, 2021

Interactive map of all of my flights here
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  #26  
Old 09-21-2022, 11:36 PM
Taltruda Taltruda is offline
 
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I wonder if your .032 is really .040 wire.. are you SURE your .032 wire is really .032?
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  #27  
Old 09-21-2022, 11:42 PM
Flying Canuck Flying Canuck is offline
 
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Location: Red Deer, Alberta, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taltruda View Post
I wonder if your .032 is really .040 wire.. are you SURE your .032 wire is really .032?
Absolutely certain, it's stamped on the 1lb spool.
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Claude Pitre
RV-9A #91081, C-GCPT
Dynon SkyView HDX, IO-320 and WW 200RV C/S. Flying as of August 6, 2018

Added GPS 175 and authorized for IFR April 1, 2021

Interactive map of all of my flights here
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  #28  
Old 09-22-2022, 12:21 AM
scsmith scsmith is offline
 
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Location: Ashland, OR
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Hmmm.

I can attest that the roll pins are indeed one piece and go all the way through. It sounds like apparently your pins have some kind of debris in the hole in the center of each one. Maybe some chips from drilling and pressing the pins in? I can see how the end of the roll pin could scrape up some shavings or chips from the sides of the hole and they might get kind of packed into the end of the pin.

I wonder if you got a small diameter pin punch if you might be able to carefully tap it through the pins to clear them? Carefully - if you break the punch off, you will really be stuck. I think if you try to drill thru, it will surely grab and break the drill. But a pin punch might just clear it out.

The other possibility, as Walt suggested, is that the roll pins might be partially sheared by over-torquing, partially obstructing the hole. In that case, the hub should go back to the prop shop to re-work the "bolts".

I would think a good magnifier and bright light would help you to figure out what is going on.

If all else fails, and you can get 0.025 safety wire thru, that is better than nothing. A DAR might complain, but if that is the only solution, well....
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Last edited by scsmith : 09-22-2022 at 12:27 AM.
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  #29  
Old 09-22-2022, 08:47 AM
Flying Canuck Flying Canuck is offline
 
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Location: Red Deer, Alberta, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scsmith View Post
Hmmm.

I can attest that the roll pins are indeed one piece and go all the way through. It sounds like apparently your pins have some kind of debris in the hole in the center of each one. Maybe some chips from drilling and pressing the pins in? I can see how the end of the roll pin could scrape up some shavings or chips from the sides of the hole and they might get kind of packed into the end of the pin.

I wonder if you got a small diameter pin punch if you might be able to carefully tap it through the pins to clear them? Carefully - if you break the punch off, you will really be stuck. I think if you try to drill thru, it will surely grab and break the drill. But a pin punch might just clear it out.

The other possibility, as Walt suggested, is that the roll pins might be partially sheared by over-torquing, partially obstructing the hole. In that case, the hub should go back to the prop shop to re-work the "bolts".

I would think a good magnifier and bright light would help you to figure out what is going on.

If all else fails, and you can get 0.025 safety wire thru, that is better than nothing. A DAR might complain, but if that is the only solution, well....
This is second time on for the prop, installed and wired in 2017. Hasn't been any drilling in the vicinity since first installation and all safety wire was removed when I pulled the prop off in July. Not to say that there isn't debris, just that I have no explanation for it.

There was no over-torquing, at least not significantly beyond the 47 ft-lbs.

I'll try the pin punch, I think I might have one that small. The 0.025 is not rigid enough to get all the way through on the one I tried.

I really don't want to have to send this thing back to Ohio, it just got back from the teardown and it cost me $1200+ just for shipping and customs. The bolts should have been part of that teardown, I'll put a call into the manufacturer for further guidance.

No issues with having to pass any inspections other than my own, at least that's how it is in Canada.
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Claude Pitre
RV-9A #91081, C-GCPT
Dynon SkyView HDX, IO-320 and WW 200RV C/S. Flying as of August 6, 2018

Added GPS 175 and authorized for IFR April 1, 2021

Interactive map of all of my flights here
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  #30  
Old 09-22-2022, 11:06 AM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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Claude -

You might think of giving Whirlwind in San Diego a call, and seeing what they think. Jim Rust is now doing some selling and servicing of WW C/S props out of his own shop, and since he designed the things, he is pretty knowledgeable about them. It really does look like those roll pins are blocked by debris of some kind - you say there was safety wire in the holes when it came off? Has it been toOhio and back since then? If that’s the case, someone in Ohio did something…..

It is not uncommon for prop manufacturer manuals to be agnostic on safety wiring - they say “do what the airframe (or engine) manufacturer tell you to do”. And I can tell you that at least some prop development testing is done without safety wiring because the prop is only going to be on for a few hours before removal….

Paul
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