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  #1  
Old 06-16-2020, 02:46 PM
SFSA1's Avatar
SFSA1 SFSA1 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: West Palm Beach, Florida
Posts: 75
Talking SFSA 6/16: Our AC System v.s. an Air Flow System

What improves the efficiency of our ac system compared to a typical airflow system?

[*]Our evaporator is bigger, with a bigger blower, and more efficient.

[*]- You can select to re circulate the air or get air from the outside (airflow's only re circulates).

[*]- There is a digital control to set the temperature: fan speed, and re circulation mode.

[*]- Our kit comes with an exhaust extension to minimize the hot gases and oil to hit the condenser. It increases the system efficiency.

[*]- The kit comes ready to install with cut hoses crimped with connectors (so, no need for special tools).

[*]- The overhead is designed to be used with the AC with internal insulation to avoid condensation (the overhead is part of the kit, including vents, led lights, wiring, primed, and ready to paint).

[*]- The overhead is designed to be used with AC with an integrated air return.

[*]- Standard Lycoming flywheel double groove (not included). The vantage is to use the standard and avoid having problems with the belt.

[*] - AC harness come ready to install.

[*]- You can select to re circulate the air or get air from the outside on a digital panel. However, even in recirculating mode, the AC system will get 15% of exterior air to assure good oxygen supply inside the cabin.

Air Condition Parts:


Installed:


If you have more questions, please call or email us:
sales@sfsportaviation.com
__________________
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561-396-9211
kim@sfsportaviation.com
www.sfsportaviation.com
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  #2  
Old 06-18-2020, 03:53 PM
bkthomps bkthomps is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Destin
Posts: 1,543
Default

any pictures of your RV7 system that is currently being developed? any sketches or ideas to share if not?

is it really 20lbs heavier than the RV10 system?
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  #3  
Old 06-20-2020, 04:37 AM
KatanaPilot KatanaPilot is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Locust Grove, GA
Posts: 645
Default Why I chose Airflow over SFSA

As an RV-10 builder installing an Airflow Systems A/C kit with the "Aussie" evaporator, I found your recent post on the differences between systems interesting. Especially interesting since Airflow supplied your sister company in Brazil with multiple A/C kits that look a lot like yours a few years ago. Here is how the differences were explained to me and why I made the choice I did. Just to be clear, I did look at your system installed in Eliane?s RV-10 and talk at length with her about it.

1. The Airflow "Aussie" evaporator is a dual fan, high thermal capacity (over 20,000 BTUs) unit. It is highly regarded in RV-10s based in Australia where take off temperatures often exceed 110 degrees F. Where is the data to support your claim of higher efficiency?

2. As in your car, recirculating cooled air brings down the temp more quickly, thus less energy is required to drive the compressor. If desired, outside air is available from the standard RV-10 vents. I did add rear NACA vents and Aerosport?s fresh air valve to also feed the overhead console if I want to.

3. Airflow Systems tested digital controls and found them to be an unnecessary failure point that complicates installation and diagnostics. They may be added at owner discretion but are not recommended based on Airflow's experience. Their stated goal is efficiency simplified.

4 Exhaust extensions have always been available from Airflow, it is on their Bill of Materials, but most owners find them unnecessary. Bill at Airflow does state they can reduce cabin noise but since most RV-10s have 4 headsets the extra drag may not be worth it. Again, owner choice. My Custom Aircraft exhaust system came with extensions.

5. Airflow provides uncut hose and related fittings so that different hose hose routing options may be used based on owner/builder preference. While all RV-10s are similar the equipment installed is not always the same or in the same position and may require different hose routing. Crimping the fittings is easy with the tool loaned out by Airflow (I already had this tool). This flexibility was invaluable for our recent installation. We evaluated several routing options working around our built in oxygen system and to avoid crossing the elevator controls. It also allowed smaller holes to be drilled, since only the hose itself needed to pass through the holes and not the larger fittings - some fittings were installed (crimped) in the plane.

6. Condensation does not occur in the overhead duct, it occurs at the evaporator. This is why Airflow supplies a drain for the evaporator, again like your car. The extra weight of the insulation is of questionable value given the cored composite top of the RV-10. I also much preferred the look of the Aerosport carbon fiber overhead (which I clearcoated) versus your heavier fiberglass overhead.

7. The dual groove flywheel, with serpentine belt for the A/C compressor, is included in the Airflow kit for the same reasons that car manufacturers eliminated V-Belts 30 years ago. The benefits of serpentine belts are why Airflow went to the considerable expense of tooling up for and making their own flywheels. This flywheel worked beautifully with our recent installation of the SDS hall effect sensor magnets. Ross at SDS even makes a unique magnet drilling jig for Bill?s flywheels.

8. The wiring kit is supplied in uncut form for the same reason as the hose kit, flexibility.

9. Are you saying that RV-10s without your air conditioning, and thus missing your 15% of outside air, are short on oxygen?

10. You didn't mention your condenser scoop, which looks like the Airflow Systems unit. I know they tested theirs in a university wind tunnel, is yours the same as theirs?

I?m sure your air conditioning system is a fine unit, but please don?t bash the system your sister company Flyer used to develop theirs and if you make claims about being more "efficient", please provide data to back that up.
__________________
Krea Ellis

Locust Grove, GA
DA20-A1 "Princess Amelia" - gone home to Amelia Island
RV-7A Phase 2 (Honored to be Van's "Miss July" 2021)
RV-10 under construction at Synergy Air South
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  #4  
Old 06-22-2020, 04:44 PM
luiz.ferreira's Avatar
luiz.ferreira luiz.ferreira is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Delray Beach - FL
Posts: 15
Default RV7 AC system

Unfortunately, because of the pandemic, we are working with a very limited team. We are focused on producing the products we already offer.

Therefore, I don't have a schedule for the RV-7/9 system.

About the weight, we don't have this information, but for sure it won't be heavier than the RV-10.

Luiz Ferreira
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South Florida Sport Aviation
www.sfsportaviation.com
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  #5  
Old 06-22-2020, 04:46 PM
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luiz.ferreira luiz.ferreira is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Delray Beach - FL
Posts: 15
Default

Hi Krea,

I do remember you. You came to discuss business, as far as I remember you have a build assist company. At least it is what it is stated in your business card.
I noticed your post has a very commercial tone. It does not resemble a builder post. We did a commercial post based on VAF rules as a commercial member.

I could discuss about Airflow Systems as a builder and even as a user. We are Airflow Systems customers also. We do have a great experience with Airflow Systems and with Flyer’s AC system. We do have a great experience flying and using Airflow Systems and Flyer’s AC system. As you stated yourself, nobody better than us to compare the systems because we have experience with both. So, let me address your questions:

1. The Airflow "Aussie" evaporator is a dual fan, high thermal capacity (over 20,000 BTUs) unit. It is highly regarded in RV-10s based in Australia where take off temperatures often exceed 110 degrees F. Where is the data to support your claim of higher efficiency?
Luiz – I couldn’t find detailed information about “Aussie” at Airflow’s website. A bigger evaporator with dual fan is standard in our system and the comparison is with their standard system. Our has also 20,000BTU’s standard.
Luiz add - 21.000 BTU/h@38°C-320m³/h

2. As in your car, recirculating cooled air brings down the temp more quickly, thus less energy is required to drive the compressor. If desired, outside air is available from the standard RV-10 vents. I did add rear NACA vents and Aerosport’s fresh air valve to also feed the overhead console if I want to.
Luiz – I think you got the idea. We want to have the system similar to a car, with the recirculation air option to be accessible by pressing a button.

3. Airflow Systems tested digital controls and found them to be an unnecessary failure point that complicates installation and diagnostics. They may be added at owner discretion but are not recommended based on Airflow's experience. Their stated goal is efficiency simplified.
Luiz – we have the experience of hundreds of AC systems installed. The benefits of having the control panel are higher than the failure possibility. It does not complicate the installation because our harnesses come ready, with all the connectors in place. Actually, the panel helps trouble shouting because it can show the system failures, such low refrigerant pressure. Also, with the panel and the thermostat, the user can set the temperature and avoid the compressor to work non-stop and increase the fuel burn.

4 Exhaust extensions have always been available from Airflow, it is on their Bill of Materials, but most owners find them unnecessary. Bill at Airflow does state they can reduce cabin noise but since most RV-10s have 4 headsets the extra drag may not be worth it. Again, owner choice. My Custom Aircraft exhaust system came with extensions.
Luiz- this information is not at their website and when we bought our Airflow system, before stating SFSA, nobody offered us the extensions and we had never received those parts. Our standard system comes with them.

5. Airflow provides uncut hose and related fittings so that different hose hose routing options may be used based on owner/builder preference. While all RV-10s are similar the equipment installed is not always the same or in the same position and may require different hose routing. Crimping the fittings is easy with the tool loaned out by Airflow (I already had this tool). This flexibility was invaluable for our recent installation. We evaluated several routing options working around our built in oxygen system and to avoid crossing the elevator controls. It also allowed smaller holes to be drilled, since only the hose itself needed to pass through the holes and not the larger fittings - some fittings were installed (crimped) in the plane.
Luiz – our system was designed for amateur builders. So any person that decides to build an RV can install the system without the need for specific AC experience or special tools. It is different from a person like you that has a build assist company and have all the tools and knowledge.

6. Condensation does not occur in the overhead duct, it occurs at the evaporator. This is why Airflow supplies a drain for the evaporator, again like your car. The extra weight of the insulation is of questionable value given the cored composite top of the RV-10. I also much preferred the look of the Aerosport carbon fiber overhead (which I clearcoated) versus your heavier fiberglass overhead.
Luiz – it is true that the majority of the condensation occurs at the evaporator and our evaporator also has a drain. Our experience shows that if you have an efficient AC the condensation will also happen in the overhead console. If you want to compare the consoles weight you need to compare including vents, lighting and wiring. Don’t forget to add to the weight or your console the grill, the duct for the return air. Our console comes with it integrated and the weight difference is almost nothing at the end.

7. The dual groove flywheel, with serpentine belt for the A/C compressor, is included in the Airflow kit for the same reasons that car manufacturers eliminated V-Belts 30 years ago. The benefits of serpentine belts are why Airflow went to the considerable expense of tooling up for and making their own flywheels. This flywheel worked beautifully with our recent installation of the SDS hall effect sensor magnets. Ross at SDS even makes a unique magnet drilling jig for Bill’s flywheels.
Luiz- our experience with serpentine belts wasn’t good at all. It is hard to align and breaks easily. Probably because the characteristics and usage conditions of a car engine and airplane engine are very different. Besides we prefer to maintain the original Lycoming part than a custom made. The RV-10 you saw when you came visit us was built in 2012 and it was never changed until now.

8. The wiring kit is supplied in uncut form for the same reason as the hose kit, flexibility.
Luiz – it was discussed before with hose.

9. Are you saying that RV-10s without your air conditioning, and thus missing your 15% of outside air, are short on oxygen?
Luiz – nobody said so. But if you have an AC conditioning, there is a great possibility of flying with standard fresh air closed all the time. We follow the best practices to avoid any possible problem.

10. You didn't mention your condenser scoop, which looks like the Airflow Systems unit. I know they tested theirs in a university wind tunnel, is yours the same as theirs?
Luiz – It is very similar indeed. If this information is important for you, I can ask the manufacture.

I’m sure your air conditioning system is a fine unit, but please don’t bash the system your sister company Flyer used to develop theirs and if you make claims about being more "efficient", please provide data to back that up.
Luiz – considering that your post has a commercial tone, I don’t think it worth to go through this malicious commentary. Anyway, if you would like to discuss this matter, you should contact Flyer directly.
__________________
Luiz Ferreira
South Florida Sport Aviation
www.sfsportaviation.com

Last edited by luiz.ferreira : 06-29-2020 at 10:34 AM. Reason: Adding more precise specs of Flyer's AC system for RV-10
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  #6  
Old 06-22-2020, 06:59 PM
KatanaPilot KatanaPilot is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Locust Grove, GA
Posts: 645
Default

Not that it should matter, but I haven’t been involved in the build assist firm for over a year. I do also recall our conversation and your comments about the Airflow system not being very good. I disagree with your assessment.

[ed. Uncivil text removed by dr. Posting rules please. v/r,dr]

As to the benefits of one system over another, I suppose it’s up to the buyers to decide. I made my choice.
__________________
Krea Ellis

Locust Grove, GA
DA20-A1 "Princess Amelia" - gone home to Amelia Island
RV-7A Phase 2 (Honored to be Van's "Miss July" 2021)
RV-10 under construction at Synergy Air South

Last edited by DeltaRomeo : 06-23-2020 at 09:07 AM.
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  #7  
Old 06-22-2020, 09:42 PM
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luiz.ferreira luiz.ferreira is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Delray Beach - FL
Posts: 15
Default This are rules to post at VAF - Be respectful

We are a small U.S. company as well. What are you saying? We pay taxes. And this type of accusation is very disturbing! You should be able to prove what you are saying.

As I said before, you can contact Flyer directly and discuss the matter with them if you want. But stop accusing us of things that we didn't do.

Anyway, you should open your mind. Flyer built almost 2,000 Van's RVs and helps to promote a U.S. company outside the country.

South Florida Sport Aviation looks for the best products to offer to the market.

Competition is part of the market and good for the end-users. It is the best way to have better products and better offers.

We don't consider Airflow, or any other company our competitor. There are space for everybody. At the moment, for instance, we are developing a headliner to be used with Aerospot's overhead console and Airflow systems.

South Florida Sport Aviation's goal is to offer quality products and good services to our customers.

Our post didn't say the Ariflow's system is bad. You brought this to the discussion. My opinion you already have and the proof that maybe I wasn't wrong is that now they are offering another system option similar to Flyer's. A system with a bigger evaporator with dual fan and exhaust pipe extension (based on the information you gave). Did Airflow copy from Flyer?
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South Florida Sport Aviation
www.sfsportaviation.com
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  #8  
Old 06-22-2020, 10:45 PM
AviatorJ AviatorJ is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 930
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I went with Airflow for the larger ‘Aussie’ evaporator and the ability to customize the installation. That’s not for everyone so it’s great to see options. On the Aussie evaporator, believe it comes from Vintage Air. Takes the edge off for those 100+ days.
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First Flight 2/14/2019
http://operationrv10.blogspot.com/

Last edited by AviatorJ : 06-25-2020 at 08:36 AM.
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  #9  
Old 06-23-2020, 09:08 AM
DeltaRomeo DeltaRomeo is offline
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Read the posting rules folks.

Literally the first four words on the front page are "We roll civil here...".



v/r,dr
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  #10  
Old 06-24-2020, 12:02 PM
Latech15 Latech15 is offline
 
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Location: louisiana
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Flyer built almost 2,000 Van's RVs


Is there really one person who has built 2000 of the 10-11k total flying rv?s out there?
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