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  #21  
Old 03-30-2021, 10:44 AM
Roadjunkie1's Avatar
Roadjunkie1 Roadjunkie1 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Erie, Colorado
Posts: 162
Default Base to final problems.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrispratt View Post
I slowed the RV-8 down to pattern speed, started a left turn base-to-final, pulled up the nose a bit to tighten the turn, then stepped on left rudder. The -8 immediately shook and started to enter a spin. I didn't need any prompting to recover . Try it (at altitude of course)
When I was prepping for my Flight Testing and my first flight in SuzieQ, Dean Hall and I went out in his RV-4 and we did several "let me show you something"s. One was to line up (at altitude) perpendicular to a road as if on base, and overshoot, turn "base to final" and push the left (wing down) rudder to get the airplane lined up with the runway again and see what happened. In a left, tight turn, the right wing will start to fly faster but at a greater AOA, disrupting the airflow, and the left (lower) wing will fly slower, resulting in a stall-spin entry. Well, THAT got my attention.....

I find when I am in the pattern, whatever I am flying, slowing to pattern airspeeds and making turns, my feet actually reflexively come OFF the rudder pedals and I find I am making small, almost tapping inputs until I am on final and done with pattern turns. I think I was doing that before the little "watch this" demonstration, maybe from my initial training.

And here is another issue: I was talking to a friend who is learning to fly in a 172 and they no longer teach stalls!!! Approach to stalls is all you get!!! Difficult to believe! SO: if you are one of those who was not taught how to stall an airplane, go out with your airplane and do a bunch of stalls! It will make you become more familiar with your airplane and maybe keep you from doing what happened to the RV. Freaked out to do that (you SHOULDN'T be): get and instructor. AND find someone who teaches recovery from unusual attitudes. And does SPINS. They had just taken spins out of the check ride by the time I got my ticket (many moons ago). One CANNOT adequately know their airplane, especially in the Test Flight Phase (!!!), without knowing what your airplane does in stall attitudes, which includes departure stalls.

I have been flying for a while (no, I did not know Wilber and Orville personally) but still go out and do slow flight, turns on and around a point, stalls of various types (who knows what a "falling leaf" maneuver is?) which are basics. Can any pilot be so good they forget basic flying? Can you still do "S" turns on a road and stay on it? Your head and eyes have to be OUT of the cockpit to do some of these basics correctly.

AOA? Stall warning? I cannot remember the last time I flew in an airplane with one (probably the 180) but it likely would startle me when it went off, especially in the flare, as I am not used to them. Are they nice to have? I suppose, especially if that is what you are used to having. Awareness of the way your airplane flies and awareness of the attitude at all times shouldn't be replaced by devices. What if you are used to landing by hearing the stall warning or watching the AOA and it fails? How are your landings then? Not sure you can even put one in the J-3..........

IMHO; Nomex Underwear firmly in place......
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  #22  
Old 03-30-2021, 04:43 PM
Brian_G Brian_G is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Canadian, TX
Posts: 10
Default Square Patterns

I remember not so long ago in training I was taught to fly a nice rectangular pattern, and even got a compliment on my checkride for doing so w/ wind correction.

I wish we would stop teaching that habit. As soon as the training wheels were taken off I quit doing that, and ever since fly a nice easy semicircle from downwind to final, or if I have to fly a true base leg for traffic or towers a big rounded off base to final turn. I always figured if the base to final turn is a danger point, why not eliminate it. I firmly believe I know how to fly a traditional rectangular pattern safely and predictably, but in the back of my mind I know every other pilot that had an accident thought the same thing.
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  #23  
Old 03-30-2021, 06:41 PM
David Z David Z is online now
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Thunder Bay Ontario
Posts: 596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadjunkie1 View Post
AOA? Stall warning? I cannot remember the last time I flew in an airplane with one (probably the 180) but it likely would startle me when it went off, especially in the flare, as I am not used to them. Are they nice to have? I suppose, especially if that is what you are used to having. Awareness of the way your airplane flies and awareness of the attitude at all times shouldn't be replaced by devices. What if you are used to landing by hearing the stall warning or watching the AOA and it fails? How are your landings then? Not sure you can even put one in the J-3..........
I'm quite curious how one could compare statistics of different types of pilots.
-Aerobatic pilots spend their time exploiting the edge of the flight envelope. Frequently crossing into stalled flight intentionally and very controlled.
-Airline pilots spend their flight time avoiding the edges of the flight envelope as much as is possible. They even bring a second pilot with them and a whole bunch of fancy gadgets to help avoid problems such as a stall.

I can't remember the last time an airliner experienced a stall/spin accident, perhaps Colgan 3407 from 12 years ago (many more contributing factors). How often do aerobatic pilots, who are highly experienced in the stall regime, encounter inadvertent stall/spin accidents? I have no idea, and I suspect there's no way to find out.

Most pilots operate somewhere in the middle. Aren't constantly and intentionally practicing various different types of stalls. Also, aren't 2-crew airline, stick shaker/pusher/fly-by-wire envelope protection type fancy gizmos. The direction we seem to be going is adding gizmos to our planes. AoA measuring and indicating devices, visual and aural warnings for stalls and overspeed. The old school of thought, is like Roadjunkie1 where we practice stalls much more frequently. I suppose there's no reason we can't do both? Beautiful nice sunny weekend, go out and explore the envelope. If one is accustomed to stalling, it will be more familiar if...when it happens by accident. We would be more used to the signs of an impending stall, so be more aware of what's happening before losing control.
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  #24  
Old 03-30-2021, 08:11 PM
jrs14855 jrs14855 is offline
 
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Location: Lake Havasu City AZ
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Default Stalls

Bob Hoover described extra speed as "money in the bank" and a maneuver that costs speed as "making a withdrawal". It has always served me well to carry some extra speed until wings level on final and then make the final speed reduction.
In the history of US aerobatic competition in the IAC era I don't ever recall a stall spin accident during a contest. Lots of stall spin accidents in practice, almost always a lack of proper training.
Anyone up for an inverted falling leaf?
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  #25  
Old 03-31-2021, 05:41 AM
swjohnsey swjohnsey is online now
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Kingsville, TX
Posts: 284
Default

I like that approach, CS prop makes it easy. I also use circular approach when no one is lookin'.
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  #26  
Old 03-31-2021, 06:46 AM
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Walt Walt is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 6,004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_G View Post
I remember not so long ago in training I was taught to fly a nice rectangular pattern, and even got a compliment on my checkride for doing so w/ wind correction.

I wish we would stop teaching that habit. As soon as the training wheels were taken off I quit doing that, and ever since fly a nice easy semicircle from downwind to final, or if I have to fly a true base leg for traffic or towers a big rounded off base to final turn. I always figured if the base to final turn is a danger point, why not eliminate it. I firmly believe I know how to fly a traditional rectangular pattern safely and predictably, but in the back of my mind I know every other pilot that had an accident thought the same thing.
Only trouble is if there is some guy sneaking in on final you won't have a chance to see him. It always seemed prudent to me to level the wings on base and have one last good look that final was clear. There are still quite a few folks that don't believe in radios and fly around unannounced.
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  #27  
Old 03-31-2021, 06:55 AM
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fl-mike fl-mike is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Z View Post

I can't remember the last time an airliner experienced a stall/spin accident, perhaps Colgan 3407 from 12 years ago (many more contributing factors).
Air France 447 flew the stall all the way to the ocean surface.
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  #28  
Old 03-31-2021, 06:58 AM
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MarkW MarkW is offline
 
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One of my better learning moments was two years after primary when Jan Bussell introduced me to accelerated stalls during transition training. Can't believe I went two years with instructors before I was shown this.
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  #29  
Old 03-31-2021, 07:14 AM
sailvi767 sailvi767 is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 1,294
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Z View Post
I'm quite curious how one could compare statistics of different types of pilots.
-Aerobatic pilots spend their time exploiting the edge of the flight envelope. Frequently crossing into stalled flight intentionally and very controlled.
-Airline pilots spend their flight time avoiding the edges of the flight envelope as much as is possible. They even bring a second pilot with them and a whole bunch of fancy gadgets to help avoid problems such as a stall.

I can't remember the last time an airliner experienced a stall/spin accident, perhaps Colgan 3407 from 12 years ago (many more contributing factors). How often do aerobatic pilots, who are highly experienced in the stall regime, encounter inadvertent stall/spin accidents? I have no idea, and I suspect there's no way to find out.

Most pilots operate somewhere in the middle. Aren't constantly and intentionally practicing various different types of stalls. Also, aren't 2-crew airline, stick shaker/pusher/fly-by-wire envelope protection type fancy gizmos. The direction we seem to be going is adding gizmos to our planes. AoA measuring and indicating devices, visual and aural warnings for stalls and overspeed. The old school of thought, is like Roadjunkie1 where we practice stalls much more frequently. I suppose there's no reason we can't do both? Beautiful nice sunny weekend, go out and explore the envelope. If one is accustomed to stalling, it will be more familiar if...when it happens by accident. We would be more used to the signs of an impending stall, so be more aware of what's happening before losing control.
There have been at least two Airbus stall accidents in the last 10 years. Both copilots in each case were ab intro pilots trained to fly airliners in simulators with very little actual stick time. One was a A330 in the Atlanta (AF447) and another was a A320 in the Pacific (QZ8501). In the case of AF447 both pilots at the controls were ab intro trained directly into airliners and had limited other flying experience. Neither recognized they were in a stall. The Captain on break who had extensive stick and rudder time recognized the stall but it was to late when he returned and the copilot continued to hold full aft stick to impact. The identical thing happened on QZ8501 where the copilot held full aft stick preventing recovery. The Airbus sums left and right stick inputs which combined with autotrim systems prevented a better outcome.
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  #30  
Old 03-31-2021, 08:58 AM
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Roadjunkie1 Roadjunkie1 is offline
 
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Location: Erie, Colorado
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Default Wide patterns............

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post
Only trouble is if there is some guy sneaking in on final you won't have a chance to see him. It always seemed prudent to me to level the wings on base and have one last good look that final was clear. There are still quite a few folks that don't believe in radios and fly around unannounced.
I agree. On downwind, I look behind to make sure someone isn't cutting me from inside the pattern (although my patterns are pretty tight) and, of course, outside of where I am to make sure someone isn't doing a W I D E pattern, which are pretty common here. On base I look again, especially someone doing a straight-in (did I say Cirrus out loud?) and, on final I look DOWN the runway to make sure someone isn't landing upwind. That has happened more than once. One a white Cassut (read tiny) and saw him JUST in time.

A W I D E pattern here is pretty common. There is a Class D airspace 1.5 miles to the South and so many people (hundreds a month) have busted the airspace they had to put a warning at the end of the local ATIS.

I understand the rational for rounded patterns but will likely still be doing a "normal" pattern, maybe slightly rounded. Better to see you with, my dear!
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