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N Number Font

g zero

Well Known Member
If a N Number is painted on a plane and the font doesn’t meet FAA regulations does it need to be removed or can the proper font N Number be applied in another location ?
 
Those Numbers

I had a recently deceased buddy that loved British aeroplanes. His Gipsy Moths and Tiger Moth all display their original British G numbers, full size, on the fuselage and wings. Current N numbers are ‘semicorrectly’ on the fuselages, 2” tall, under the stabilizers. Nobody has ever said anything. I’m pretty sure that if the correct number, in the correct font, in the correct location is displayed, you’ve met the marking requirement, and the ‘wrong’ numbers do not negate that.
 
Intent

The intent of the reg is to insure the numbers can be read. If your numbers are within reason and can be clearly read, don't be concerned.

As an example, someone could paint letters that are the exact size required but paint them in a color that makes them nearly invisible like Black on dark gray.
 
Crossing the ADIZ

What font is painter's tape?

Wy8GHeUl.jpg
 
I get a lot of interesting comments when people see the registration number on my plane. Everything from, “Way cool” to, “you better hope the FAA doesn’t see that.” I get a chuckle out of the later one. I think that this is one area of homebuilding that the feds don’t make a huge deal about unless there is way too much artistic license taken. Just take note of all the variations of registration numbers on the planes at Oshkosh and you will ask how they got away with that.
Just over a year ago, I had my vinyl-wrapped RV-7 painted at Art Craft Paint in Santa Maria, CA. When I showed them the paint scheme and how I wanted my N number to be, two different colors, they questioned if I could get away with it. “Of course,” I said. “It’s done all the time.” I actually wasn’t sure. I figured that if it was not a legal marking, surely a paint shop would know. Fortunately, I had several weeks before the paint shop was ready to put the red and silver on the plane and I took that time to research what is and isn’t allowed on an “N” number. During that time, I saw the gorgeous RV-10 that was being given away by AOPA with the N number N260MG with the contrasting 0MG. Very cool in my world. By the way, do you ever say, “N number” and get that feeling that you’ve said something redundant like ATM Machine, or VIN Number? I digress.




FAR Part 45 gives all the detail for size and location of the N number including this:
§ 45.21 General.
Except as provided in §45.22, no person may operate a U.S.-registered aircraft unless that aircraft displays nationality and registration marks in accordance with the requirements of this section and §§45.23 through 45.33.
Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may place on any aircraft a design, mark, or symbol that modifies or confuses the nationality and registration marks.
Aircraft nationality and registration marks must—(
Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, be painted on the aircraft or affixed by any other means insuring a similar degree of permanence; (ie: paint or decal)
Have no ornamentation;
Contrast in color with the background; and
Be legible.

For most of us, we can look to the much easier-to-understand Advisory Circular (AC) 45-2E.
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_45-2E.pdf
AC 45-2E covers the required markings for aircraft, engines, and propellers including what your ID plate must have on it and where it is placed as well as the EXPERIMENTAL or Light Sport markings. Here is some if the information:

Fixed-wing aircraft
Minimum height: 12 inches (with exceptions such as exhibition, limited or restricted category aircraft).
Location: (1) On both surfaces of a single vertical tail or on the outer surfaces of a multi-vertical tail, or (2) On the fuselage surfaces, on both sides of the fuselage between the trailing edge of the wing and the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. If engine pods or other equipment are located in this area and are an integral part of the fuselage side surfaces, you may place the marks on those pods or equipment.
Orientation: Horizontal

Experimental aircraft
Minimum Height: Exhibition, amateur-built, and light-sport aircraft with a maximum cruising speed of 180 knots or less 3 inches (with exceptions as shown in Table 3).
Location: (1) On both sides of the fuselage between the trailing edge of the wing and the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer, or (2) On both sides of the vertical tail surface.
Orientation: Horizontal (with exceptions as shown in Table 3)

These are just two of the several aircraft types or categories AC 45-2E covers, and they're also examples of exceptions from the rules including this last item in the table:
Displaying an N-number on an aircraft, but not as specified in this AC. You may ask the FAA for authority to display the number in some other way. Contact your local FSDO or MIDO for assistance.
 
I know personally of an occasion where an RV was flagged by a passing FAA inspector for having an N-number font that was deemed "too thin". As I recall they were forced to apply new vinyl digits on top of the old ones - same height, just a different font.
 
It really depends on if a ASI is having a bad day of not. I flew into HHR one time in my Mooney which had a somewhat pretentious paint scheme (it has flames on the nose). An ASI yellow tagged it because "the lettering was out of spec".

The N number was in a cursive-y font but clearly legible and had been that way for 20 years.

When I called the FSDO and left a message for the supervisor to please give me a temp moving permit so I could get out of his territory and back to Vegas, the ASI returned my call and told me to just tear up the yellow tag and forget it happened.

I keep meaning to get that yellow tag framed.
 
I had a recently deceased buddy that loved British aeroplanes. His Gipsy Moths and Tiger Moth all display their original British G numbers, full size, on the fuselage and wings. Current N numbers are ‘semicorrectly’ on the fuselages, 2” tall, under the stabilizers. Nobody has ever said anything.

Interesting. What you describe is a direct violation of 14 CFR Part 45, which states in pertinent part (my emphasis added):

§ 45.21 General.
Except as provided in §45.22, no person may operate a U.S.-registered aircraft unless that aircraft displays nationality and registration marks in accordance with the requirements of this section and §§45.23 through 45.33.
Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may place on any aircraft a design, mark, or symbol that modifies or confuses the nationality and registration marks.


Does your friend have specific approval for the UK registration marks? If not, he is in danger of being cited. Just because "nobody has ever said anything" doesn't mean that someone might not in the future.

Having said that, I have seen A BUNCH of aircraft flying around that have N numbers displayed that don't even come close to meeting Part 45. And like you say, "nobody ever says anything". Apparently it's not high on the FAA's list of enforcement actions.

But that doesn't mean you can't get cited, so be aware.

And to answer the original poster's question, it would not be a problem to have the "non-standard" N numbers along with the ones that meet the regulation. So long as you've got one legal set, you're in business.
 
The situation isn't any better in Canada. Our regs refer to letters being in a "Roman Font" which an inspector told me means letters have to be in "Times Roman" like you'd see on your computer screen (not simply Roman lettering, ie. A, B, C, as opposed to Cyrillic or Mandarin characters).
 
Joe is correct.

The FAA has the final say. You may get 100 FAA guys walk past your plane, and the 101st is the one to pull you aside for a chat.

I bought a Canadian registered Stinson 20+ years ago. The Indy FSDO FAA would not let us keep the enormous Canadian markings under the wings, nor the smaller one on the fin. Some creative painting was required, but only if we ever actually wanted to fly it, and have valid insurance.

At the next Oshkosh, I counted several planes with dual registrations on them. They obviously hadn't had FAA guy #101 walk past yet.

When Blake or I make registration graphics for people who want non-standard markings we say "Thanks for your money and good luck!!" We've had a few come back later.... to no one's surprise.
 
I know personally of an occasion where an RV was flagged by a passing FAA inspector for having an N-number font that was deemed "too thin". As I recall they were forced to apply new vinyl digits on top of the old ones - same height, just a different font.

I too know of this instance. A well respected DAR had his certification permanently suspended over the minor deviation.

It is foolish to assume that as long as the deviation is not extreme you will be fine.
The rules are the rules, whether we agree with them or not is pointless.

Having a care free attitude towards a rule leads to only two things....
The FAA stereotyping a particular aviation group as one that wont follow the rules, and as a result of that, new rules (in an attempt to force compliance with an iron fist).

Please don't have a carefree attitude towards a rule just because you think it is petty. That attitude can have a negative impact on the entire private/sport aviation community.
 
Poking the bear

This thread brought to mind a lengthy discussion and an article written by Van back when I was building circa 2008. I believe it was titled "Don't poke the bear" or something similar. The actions of a few can have repercussions for many...

Joe
 
My DAR said: Remember when you paint it letters have to be at least 0.5" thick.

The stupid 3" vinyl lettering I found at Home Depot narrows down to 1/4".

I think I'll fix it with a black marker ... painting may be in the more distant future.

Finn
 
The situation isn't any better in Canada. Our regs refer to letters being in a "Roman Font" which an inspector told me means letters have to be in "Times Roman" like you'd see on your computer screen (not simply Roman lettering, ie. A, B, C, as opposed to Cyrillic or Mandarin characters).

That's just stupid. There are literally *hundreds* of "Roman" fonts...
 
Ah Ha!

Interesting. What you describe is a direct violation of 14 CFR Part 45, which states in pertinent part (my emphasis added):

§ 45.21 General.
Except as provided in §45.22, no person may operate a U.S.-registered aircraft unless that aircraft displays nationality and registration marks in accordance with the requirements of this section and §§45.23 through 45.33.
Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may place on any aircraft a design, mark, or symbol that modifies or confuses the nationality and registration marks.


Does your friend have specific approval for the UK registration marks? If not, he is in danger of being cited. Just because "nobody has ever said anything" doesn't mean that someone might not in the future.

Having said that, I have seen A BUNCH of aircraft flying around that have N numbers displayed that don't even come close to meeting Part 45. And like you say, "nobody ever says anything". Apparently it's not high on the FAA's list of enforcement actions.

But that doesn't mean you can't get cited, so be aware.

And to answer the original poster's question, it would not be a problem to have the "non-standard" N numbers along with the ones that meet the regulation. So long as you've got one legal set, you're in business.


We had conversations about this. It is done in the old airplane business from time to time. I had no idea this FAR existed. I doubt he knew either. Even he said "Yes, I think they shouldn't let me do this." Just logic told me it was wrong, apart from any existing or nonexistent FARs. Not a problem for him any more, he died last Saturday.
 
If you're really worried about non-conforming N numbers due to font, color, whatever...just carry around a set of conforming ones on vinyl stickers in your travel kit. Over-zealous inspector mentions it? "Hold on a second, sir". Slap 'em on over the painted ones. Fly home. Remove. Problem solved.
 
Planning not to comply and coming up with justifications for doing so or workarounds after the fact probably won't get ya far with the FAA. :)

Based on history this is one that is rarely enforced to the letter (sorry) of the law, until it is enforced - and then it's 100% enforced.
 
It's really not that hard to make them legal, so why are so many talking about ways to "work around" the rule? Just make them legal!! Then there's never a problem.
 
Planning not to comply and coming up with justifications for doing so or workarounds after the fact probably won't get ya far with the FAA. :)

Based on history this is one that is rarely enforced to the letter (sorry) of the law, until it is enforced - and then it's 100% enforced.
Yup. "Nothing happens, until something happens".

Remember....
"Don't poke the bear..." The actions of a few can have repercussions for many...
Unfortunately too many people only care about themselves. :(
 
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It's really not that hard to make them legal, so why are so many talking about ways to "work around" the rule? Just make them legal!! Then there's never a problem.

Because we have DARs and inspectors who all seem to operate to their own rules, and NOT what the law actually says. Examples: requiring painting fuel caps red, requiring the removal and replacement of *Lycoming-installed* hardware on a new engine, using only a single font (Times New Roman) instead of any font that uses Roman lettering (you know, ABCDE..., and not Greek or Cyrillic, etc.).
 
Because we have DARs and inspectors who all seem to operate to their own rules, and NOT what the law actually says. Examples: requiring painting fuel caps red, requiring the removal and replacement of *Lycoming-installed* hardware on a new engine, using only a single font (Times New Roman) instead of any font that uses Roman lettering (you know, ABCDE..., and not Greek or Cyrillic, etc.).

You make a good point. This isn't just DARs either. Lots of FAA inspectors have their own personal "rules" that they impose on applicants. For example, when I was still one of the instructors in the initial DAR training class, we had one FAA inspector who was adamant that he wouldn't certificate an aircraft that didn't have a "whiskey" compass installed. He didn't care if it had an electronic panel with a magnetometer or whatever. it was a whiskey compass or no certificate. There was no way us instructors nor the other FAA inspectors in the class could knock him off that pedestal. (Hint: There NO regulatory requirement for a compass of any kind for day/VFR operation of an amateur-built aircraft).

This is one of the things that drives a lot of us nuts about the process. Every MIDO, FSDO, and individual inspector has these little inconsistencies that applicants will run into. It can be maddening. (Really? Fuel caps have to be painted red?? Where did THAT come from? Never even seen that on a standard category airplane!)

But the N number thing is so simple to comply with, and a compliant N number will not be an issue no matter how any other quirks a particular inspector might have. So if you just go ahead and put compliant numbers on the aircraft, you can save all the energy you might use trying to come up with creative ways to outmaneuver the reg, and use that saved energy to comply with the little inane requirements that your particular inspector is imposing upon you.

:)
 
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