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Dimpling problem

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danielweberdlc

I'm New Here
I'm trying to learn how to build by building the RV training kit and I ran into an odd problem I can't explain. I'm building the first piece, where you drill 12 #40 holes, dimple and then rivet two pieces of sheet together.

I'm using the Cleaveland tools dimple die sets and C frame.

After I dimpled the holes I was surprised to see my 3/32" cleco's would not stay in the holes, which had somehow enlarged. I'm at a loss to understand what I did wrong. I'm positive I used the correct dies and drill, as the pieces were cleco'd together before I dimpled.

Is it possible to over-dimple to the point where the holes get too big? I'm so confused.

Thanks,
 
possibilities

Once dimpled, the holes do enlarge just slightly and sometimes if the cleco is installed from the side that bent inward (the inward side) it won't hold real well. Make sure the cleco comes from the outside skin towards the inside skin.
 
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Also, the clecos from different manufacturer are slightly different. I bought clecos in different places, they are all stored in the same place. Some of them lose their "shinyness" after a while others still look like new. The shiny ones grips a dimpled hole with no problem, not so much for the others.
 
Clekos

Check the brand. Wedgelock clekos are best. The center pin is thicker. Clekolock will pop out of a dimpled hole.
Pretty hard to over dimple. Even with a C-frame, it takes two serious whacks to get a nice crisp dimple.
 
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wirejock said:
Check the brand. Wedgelock clekos are best. The center pin is thicker. Clekolock will pop out of a dimpled hole.
Pretty hard to over dimple. Even with a C-frame, it takes two serious whacks to get a nice crisp dimple.
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But the 'fatter' center pin makes it harder to insert in the un-drilled undersized holes in a QB kit....
 
wirejock said:
Check the brand. Wedgelock clekos are best. The center pin is thicker. Clekolock will pop out of a dimpled hole.
Pretty hard to over dimple. Even with a C-frame, it takes two serious whacks to get a nice crisp dimple.
Click to expand...

Wirejock nailed it again. I have a large can of unusable Clekolock cellos that I keep well out of reach! :) They do work well if used when match drilling but if you mix them up they will drive you crazy
 
I ran a test where I used the C frame to dimple another hole and then used the same dimple dies in the pneumatic squeezer. The squeezer dimples and the ones from the C frame fell out.

It sure looks like I'm somehow over-dimpling and enlarging the holes. Guess I'll contact Cleaveland and ask them what I'm doing wrong.

I edited this post after I went back out and the squeezer cleco fell out :-(
 
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Can?t over dimple

danielweberdlc said:
I ran a test where I used the C frame to dimple another hole and then used the same dimple dies in the pneumatic squeezer. The squeezer dimples and the ones from the C frame fell out.

It sure looks like I'm somehow over-dimpling and enlarging the holes. Guess I'll contact Cleaveland and ask them what I'm doing wrong.

I edited this post after I went back out and the squeezer cleco fell out :-(
Click to expand...

Take it from the guy who physically bent the squeezer ram while dimpling, you can?t ?over dimple? a hole. You can bend the sheet metal if not aligned properly and you can easily under dimple the hole. But I am not sure that any of us have the leverage to over dimple the hole with this equipment.

I still think the most likely problem is the wrong size die, but since you said that was checked I didn?t go down that path
 
Hole size after dimpling?

Can you measure the size of the hole after it has been dimpled? Easiest way to do this is with a larger drill bit that just fits. That may give us a clue to help figure out where things are going wrong. Also, have you got a different 3/32 dimple die that you can try?
 
Here?s a thought....(not that I have ever this!) ...but make sure you are using a #40 dimple and not a #30.... It happens and like I said...not that I have ever done that before, 😇
 
Mentor

Daniel
There are lots of experienced builders around Austin. I'm originally from Austin. 30 years. Locate one willing to be your Mentor. Spnd some quality time learning how to do it right. Don't waste time trying to teach yourself.
 
If your drilling the holes There's a possibility that the end result is a bit larger than a true #40 hole. You can always start with a next size down drill bit and then a #40 reamer to get a nicer hole. But either way the dimpling process does enlarge the hole you started with. I have found on the RV-14 pre-punched holes if I deburr them as is and then dimple without enlarging to #40 the dimpled hole is a bit smaller and the rivet/cleco's fit better.

On a related issue I have found that dimpled holes because they are bigger than the rivet, will result in a bit of wobble with the rivet. this makes for a higher probability of driving the rivet at an angle and having to remove it. Pre-squeezing the rivet with a pneumatic squeezer to make it fatter by a bit results in less rivets having to be drilled out.

If you have had to remove rivets the hole tends to be a bit bigger from the riveting process and removal so a pre-squeezed rivet (sometimes the next longer size) will also help from multiple removals of the same rivet.

If I had it to do again I would have completely disassembled and re build the tool box kit and aileron training kit at least once each. Makes for great practice all the way around. You will need to know how to remove rivets and deal with stubborn larger holes.

Yes Oops rivets work but I save those for my 3rd or 4th attempt at fixing a stubborn rivet.

Good luck
 
I don't have a full drill set, but I do have a 7/64" bit. It is very tight in the 3/32" dimples and passes easily into the substructure dimples.

I used a micrometer to measure the holes:

drilled hole measured .094"
3/32" dimple hole measures ~.105"
substructure dimple measures ~.108"

so if the #40 drill bit is correct at .098 I'm measuring about .004 small. 7/64" is .1094, which puts the substructure dimples at about .112, which checks.

I tried a bunch of cleco as well and some would hold and other wouldn't. I bought the cleco brand new from ATS so I would think they'd be ok, but there's definitely variation in holding power among them.

The AD3 rivets seem pretty sloppy in the dimpled holes to my eye, but I have no idea how much slop there should be.

Probably should just join a local chapter now that I'm practicing. I signed up for the EAA sheet metal class in Houston Dec 14-15 and maybe they'll be able to straighten me out.
 
Clekos

Specs sound correct. Personally, I only used substructure dies if there was a third layer. Tank dies were used on the second layer. Thousands of RVs have been built with just #40 skin dies.
I still think the issue is Clekolok clekos. Borrow a Wedgelock and I bet you'll see the difference. In the meantime, grab a handful of 4-40 nuts and use them on the inside to keep the cleko from popping out. I bought a box and drilled them all #40. They come in handy. Used them on the tanks. Thankfully my bucket of Clekolock clekos is no longer used. I plan to sell them cheap when my bird is done.
 
Well, I guess that's what I get for buying sale item cleco's :cool:

Luckily I only bought 60 for the training kit. I'll order the better ones from Cleaveland next week and see if that helps.
 
Not sure where you're at but I'm in Pflugerville and have some Wedgelocks if you'd like to give them a shot.

My initial batch of Clekos came with my tool kit purchase from Isham, second set came direct from Van's and they seem by far the worst (also branded Clekolock). The 3rd batch were WedgeLocks and the difference is pretty notable (as it should be as they're significantly more!). The ones from Isham seemed in the middle of the two. But the ones from Van's almost seemed defective with a lot of the "points" being misshaped.

If you want to try the WedgeLocks out before you make a decent investment in Clekos let me know.

Jared
 
Just me

I would not use substructure dies... too many people had too many problems. Substructure dies seem to be a bit of overthinking. I bought my clecos from Browns Tool and they are Boeing quality; never had an issue.
 
I live south but I work in Cedar Park - maybe we can meet for lunch sometime and I can show you the progress I've made on the practice kit (or lack thereof).
 
Help

danielweberdlc said:
I live south but I work in Cedar Park - maybe we can meet for lunch sometime and I can show you the progress I've made on the practice kit (or lack thereof).
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Daniel
I will be in Austin for two weeks around Thanksgiving. Happy to help if you still need. I will be staying in Buda. Feel free to send a e-mail. Address is in my signature below.
 
Shoot me a PM and maybe we can meet up. I work central. I?ll dig through the clecos and find a couple of wedgelocks to hand off for you to try if you want to meet up.

Jared
 
As a follow up I ordered some WedgeLock 3/32" cleco's from Cleaveland Tools and they worked fine, even on the holes I tried to over dimple.

Apparently I have a bad bunch of cleco's. I guess paying extra is worth it. Good thing I only bought 65 for the test kit :)
 
I have been slowly converting over to the Wedgelock Clecos as well. The Kwik-Lock ones aren't really bad. But it seems that I have a large amount of bad Kwik-Lock ones where I haven't had a single bad Wedgelock. A good Kwik-Lock is pretty similar to the Wedgelock...but the Wedgelocks also have a higher clamping pressure...which I can feel in my forearms as well!

Jared
 
I have some 450 Cleco-lock clecos from ATS and they?ve never given me a problem. Purchased in a few different lots over the span of 18 months so presumably not all from the same manufacturing batch. I have also added about 200 wedgelock clecos to the mix and I?ll admit those seem higher quality. They also take a little more effort to insert into the raw prepunched holes. I also ordered 25 clecos from brown tool and they turned out to be Kwik-lock and every single one of those was absolute garbage. Brown tool never responded to my inquiry for return or refund. To this day when I pull out a silver cleco and it gives me trouble it?s always a kwiklock that immediately gets tossed in the garbage. I think by now I have most of them purged from my collection.
 
danielweberdlc said:
As a follow up I ordered some WedgeLock 3/32" cleco's from Cleaveland Tools and they worked fine, even on the holes I tried to over dimple.

Apparently I have a bad bunch of cleco's. I guess paying extra is worth it. Good thing I only bought 65 for the test kit :)
Click to expand...

You?ll always get a variety of opinions from the masses, but for what its worth... you get what you pay for with tools. I?ve learned that there are a number of items, that I?ll buy from Cleveland because they always have quality stuff and stand behind it.

I?ve tried to buy cheaper drill bits for example - but I?ve had the best luck with ones from Cleveland. For anything that you?ll be using heavily - drill bits, clecos, pneumatic squeezer, etc, do yourself a favor and invest in quality stuff. My squeezer stopped working about halfway into my build, I called Mike @ Cleaveland, he contacted the manufacturer, and I had it rebuilt in less than a week.

They?re really great folks and you wont be disappointed.
 
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