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Leading edge and fuel tanks...

aarvig

Well Known Member
Well, I need to go to confession. I have said every word under the sun the good lord regards as foul. I have posted regarding the leading edges before but now I am posting regarding the fuel tanks. Am I the only one who feels the leading edge/fuel tank skins are not bent properly? The only thing that will make the ribs fit is if I shave the snot (round off the rough edges) out of the leading edge of the rib flange and then straddle the LE or Fuel tank skin and then lay all my body weight into the rib to get it into place. That being done the inside of the skins have been throughly mangled to the like that I've never seen before and the ribs have been bent several times (at the front and the rear of the rib) to the point that I'm concerned about their structural integrity. When everything is in place the ribs are still bent/bowed under in front (in the direction of the flange) and I have a 1/4 inch gap between the bottom leading edge of the rib and I have some ridiculous dents on the surface of the leading edges. Am I the only one suffering with this? It can't be normal is it?:mad:
 
my 7 fuel tank ribs were very snug going in (pre proseal application) but not to the level of difficulty that I am interpreting in your post. It almost sounds as if something is a little off somewhere. Could they be inserted upside down??

I believe vans recommends a certain method to clecoing the ribs in place in order to make it easier to get them in place. I think they recommend to start clecoing from the leading edge and move rearward, but I cant recall for certain.
 
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They are toughto line up and cleco. Go ahead and round off the leading edges of the tank ribs. There really isn't anything structural going on there. The eventual bend in the skins keeps it rigid. Every time you put this together and take it apart it will get a bit easier. With the proseal on, it helps it to slide into position easier. You are using the cradle to hold the tank skins? Do a few clecos on the forward holes and work your way back.
 
skins

Mine were tough the first time but not like yours sound. There should not be a gap that big anywhere or deformation of the rib. They might be bent wrong. Vans makes errors occasionally.
It's not uncommon to clean up the ribs a bit on the leading edge end and they usually need quite a bit of tweaking to get them fluted and flanges at 90 degrees.

My technique for assembly may not be correct but it worked for the leading edges and the several assemblies of the tanks before they were sealed.
Install the ribs to the bottom of the skin first with every other cleco. Leave out the first cleco in each rib for now.
Place the part on a foam pad leading edge down.
Get some help and push the top skin against the ribs till a cleco or drift pin can be inserted I to the middle rib, middle hole. Watch the ribs. They may need to be coaxed a bit. While holding the leading edge in place, insert clecos in the same hole to each rib.
From here it should go easy. Insert the trailing edge hole clecos.
Insert clecos between the leading edge hole and the middle hole clecos.
Work toward the leading edge inserting clecos till you get the first holes in then put the others in.

It gets easier each time. I did the tanks by myself when I prosealed them.
 
All good advice here. You are not alone Aaron welcome to the Club of Dents I am the President.

Mine were extremely distorted. I filed I adjusted I bent I rebent I cut fingers I cursed and so on... the tanks were eventually done and are still holding advertised gallonage. Don't worry about the dents the painter will fix it :D
 
Aaron
I had several spots on my leading edge that had bulges in the skin from the ribs. I kept running that edge over the scotch brite wheel removing material. I had two or three ribs I ended up re-ordering due to what I felt was a removal of to much material and they still bulged the skin. What ended up working for me is a combination of the 3M wheel for removing some material and I made a wooden template of the shape of the leading edge. I would set the rib over the block and reshape the leading edge a little. The edge of the rib where it transfers from the flange to the web seemed to be where all my problems stemmed from.

As the previous posts have said the tank gets easier each time you put it back together. I remember the first time I really struggled with it. I believe I did the same on the tank ribs if my memory serves me.
 
There was a lot of cursing and more than a little blood involved in ours. Some people will say it is easier to start from the nose with the clecos and work back, ours was the other way around. Definitely spend some time with the fluting pliers, and the regular pliers... some of our nose tabs weren't bent in enough. Not the easiest parts to put together, for sure.
 
+1 to Larry's post .. I did mine in a similar way. Doing a thorough job smoothing the tips of the ribs is important to get them to somewhat slide. For a few days, my only source of inspiration is that *all* those other RV builders did it, and I can too. Kinda like those wire puzzles; once you know the trick it all sorta worked. I did not believe that this could be done with proseal in place. In the end, it all went together easily.

Perhaps if there is an experienced eye around that can see if something's malformed? The gaps seem out of place; mine were tight.

As for confession.. say two Hail Marys, have a beer, and try it tomorrow.
 
Be sure you have read and understand the RIB FLANGE FACETING portion of Section 5 in your construction manual (chapter 5.2)
 
Oh you have no idea Aaron. It's a perennial point of cussing and drinking it seems. Like others have said, it seems to get better as you fit things together multiple times. I also had to "put my weight into it" the first two or so times I was fitting everything together, and ended up bending quite a handful of clecos. I think I said more than a handful of choice words as I was tapping in the doubler strap on the inboard (non-predrilled) rib of the leading edges.

My inner skins were equally mangled and scored up. But nothing a bit of primer or proseal wouldn't cover. And read through the other leading edge threads here. A lot of people believe the nose flanges of the ribs are underbent, not the skin. I know I rebent a few of them. Between that and some passes on the scotchbrite wheel, I imposed my will on them, and they finally succombed.

Build on! Enjoy the fact that you're back to building.
 
Leading Edge Bend Variability

My early 7 kit leading edge and tank skins were distinctly under bent. I checked my ribs against Van's airfoil template and found the ribs to be almost spot on. I found that with enough brute force I could cleco the skins to the ribs, but the noses bulged and the resulting airfoil shape was wrong. The skins (especially the tanks) are very stiff, but some careful extra bending solved the problem.

I seem to recall others actually complaining about over bent skins from Van's. I suspect there was some early process tuning going on and that later kits are better.
 
Thanks for all the replies guys. It unfortunately seems the consensus is that fuel tanks SUCK. I would agree. They are my least favorite part to date. I am going to call Vans in the AM and ask about the leading edge bend because of the weird gap I am getting. I'll let you all know what they say. Well, now out to the garage for more swearing, sweating and clecoing.:D
 
96 hrs...

Hi Aaron,

Just a quick follow up to the thread .. my tanks took 96 hrs (I tracked them separately) ... the total hobbs time is 393. 25% of my time was spent building the tanks! Keep at it.
 
My tanks took 112.5 hours from first rib fit to baffle seal and water test, spread over the course of 4 months of weekends and weeknights. The sealing and riveting was only on the weekends. Plan *easily* on things taking 4x as long. I remember between mixing sealant, spreading it, riveting, cleaning the excess, etc, a riveting session that would normally take me 1.5 hours or so chewed up the better part of 5 hours on Saturdays. And honestly, I found wearing gloves to be a total pain - they broke down far too easily under solvent cleaning up excess, and was far too sticky once Proseal got on them (usually after the first rivet. :eek:). It's a controlled mess, for sure.
 
My tanks took 112.5 hours from first rib fit to baffle seal and water test, spread over the course of 4 months of weekends and weeknights. The sealing and riveting was only on the weekends. Plan *easily* on things taking 4x as long. I remember between mixing sealant, spreading it, riveting, cleaning the excess, etc, a riveting session that would normally take me 1.5 hours or so chewed up the better part of 5 hours on Saturdays. And honestly, I found wearing gloves to be a total pain - they broke down far too easily under solvent cleaning up excess, and was far too sticky once Proseal got on them (usually after the first rivet. :eek:). It's a controlled mess, for sure.

Yea, I went through 2.5 boxes of latex gloves (125 pair) before I was done. I found that latex + gorilla grip duct-tape made for a truly inseparable combo. Boy , those two stuck together! 100 hours, +/- makes for a set of tanks. Feels good to be done! Everything now goes so much faster.
 
Tanks

Yea, I went through 2.5 boxes of latex gloves (125 pair) before I was done. I found that latex + gorilla grip duct-tape made for a truly inseparable combo. Boy , those two stuck together! 100 hours, +/- makes for a set of tanks. Feels good to be done! Everything now goes so much faster.

Wow. What the heck am I doing wrong. 235 hours logged to finish mine! I guess I'm slow. I did have to re-do the z-brackets on one tank.
+1 on the gloves. +1 on the gorilla tape thing.
Seems like as soon as you put a pair on they get sticky again or the solvent blows a hole in it!
 
DO NOT do what I did! I got so frustrated with trying to fit the ribs in the leading edges that I decided I couldn't build an RV and quit working on the airplane for 10 months! After a while, I listed the wings and tail on the net for sale.

Then after 10 months, I went to a Young Eagles fly-in where there were about 6 RV's flying in and out. I got some serious motivation from that, went home, and started working on the leading edges again. With my new motivation, it only took a month or two to build the leading edges AND the fuel tanks!

Yes it tough, but it can be done!!

(sure glad the wings never sold!!)
 
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Tank Skins

Yes, the tank skins are a tight fit on the tank ribs. I clecoed most of the bottom prepunched holes then I used some ratchet straps and blocks of wood on the aft side to help insert the ribs into the skin. Also used a scratch awl through the skin and rib prepunched holes to lever them into position to make it easier to insert adjacent clecos. After I had drilled the skins to the ribs it seemed to go easier next time through after I had dimpled the skins and ribs.

My tanks also took about 100 hours but a lot of this was learning how to use Proseal (thought I was going to glue myself to the wall a couple of times) and being very fiddly in making nice beads and cleaning up.
 
I agree, those tanks are a big mental hurdle. Its just sooo slow and tedious type work. You do have a good sense of accomplishment once you get them done though. Keep at it.
 
Mine was OK

I have somewhat different experience. I might have bee lucky with the rib batch I guess. I have to admit, I have only done the left leading edge and fuel tank. I thought I must have done something wrong, because my rib had a very good fit. I noticed small bulges on the bottom leading edge part due to pointy ribs, but both the leading edge (finished) and the fuel tank went together smoothly both before and after dimpling. I found the leading edge much easier than the empennage because of the ample room to rivet.

Timewise I have spent a century for all the fuel tank fittings (vent line, clips, anti hang-up, etc.).

Getting the leading edge riveted and the hole proseal thing is another matter, but I am ignorant enough to look forward to it......:D
 
I had exactly the same thought

Yes, the tank skins are a tight fit on the tank ribs. I clecoed most of the bottom prepunched holes then I used some ratchet straps and blocks of wood on the aft side to help insert the ribs into the skin. Also used a scratch awl through the skin and rib prepunched holes to lever them into position to make it easier to insert adjacent clecos.

I wanted to bump this thread a bit because I am dealing with exactly the same situation that everyone else has. Aaron, you said you were going to contact Vans to discuss this but I don't believe I saw a response posted here. If there was one I would love to hear what they said.

I bought two new strap-only ratchets with no hooks and I plan to do the same thing and will post pics of my results. I had already filed and scotch brited my tank rib LEs to smooth out the bumps per Vans instructions, and I am satisfied that the rib flanges are the way that they need to be for a smooth fit.

I started on my left wing tank with the skin in the cradle. I found it easiest in my case to line up and cleco the top side of the ribs first, from LE to the rear. This went fine for all the ribs. Then I experienced no less than a 1/4 inch or more gap between the LE of the skin and the nose of reach rib. I immediately had the feeling that the tank skins were not bent as well as they should be. Personally I think this is a result from a combination of the way they are bent at the factory, and they way they are stacked together with all the other LE skins and highly compressed and taped together for shipping. Just a guess....

I too then tried my best at 11:00pm at night, after spending several hours prior to this on Z bracket prep and back drilling holes, to apply mass force with one hand on the rear flange of one rib, with a cleco in the cleco pliers at the ready in the other hand. While trying to insert the most forward cleco at the front of the LE edge skin, it was a "wonderful" feeling when I felt the cleco give way, scraping the skin for about 6 inches or so. I still have the vinyl on the exterior of the skin, but I know what I will find when I get enough courage to remove it to see how deep the scratches are. I said many choice words, threw the damaged cleco on the floor in disgust, and went to bed.

So I should have quit working before attempting this, because I was already tired. But you all know how it goes - why stop building when you are on a good roll, right?

Anyway, I could tell that the tank skin LE seemed to "want" to conform to the tank rib when I applied enough pressure by pushing up on the LE of the skin with one hand, and pushing down on the rib rear flange with the other. Problem is that I ran out of hands at that point, so I had none left to insert a cleco into a hole once they lined up.

So I have thought about this for a couple of days, then I found this post, and came to the same conclusion that ratchet straps should be able to wench down the ribs enough to line up the holes. I consider it a kind of reverse process from using them to wench the LE and tank assembly down on the main wing spar. This time you use them to force the tank ribs and skin to conform to each other and line up the rivet holes.

Now the only thing I need to consider is if I should try this with the skin in or out of the cradle. It definitely seems like the cradle is preventing the tank skin from forming around the rib, but I had no such problem with the outboard leading edge assemblies. They all went together in the cradle just fine, but were also a little tight the first time.

Wish me luck, and I'll report the results of the process with pics.
 
Good luck! I had a heck of a time getting everything to line up properly. I would not have believed it possible, except for the fact that 100's of others have done it with the same pre-punched skins. The first time together was frankly, heck. The second time was easier. By the time I actually slathered on the pro-seal, the tank went together relatively easily. Keep at it! It's very doable (but maybe not doable without some choice vocabulary)

FYI, I did it ultimately out of the cradle .. I built a nice one, but it didn't really help me. The bench top was my best friend.
 
That being done the inside of the skins have been throughly mangled to the like that I've never seen before and the ribs have been bent several times (at the front and the rear of the rib) to the point that I'm concerned about their structural integrity. When everything is in place the ribs are still bent/bowed under in front (in the direction of the flange) and I have a 1/4 inch gap between the bottom leading edge of the rib and I have some ridiculous dents on the surface of the leading edges. Am I the only one suffering with this?

I cant agree with the other posters here, to me there is something wrong. yes they are a bear to fit, but there should not be the level of pain as described by you. take a picture and send to Vans for advice. The fact that you are deforming the outer skin raises flags for me. Many RV's have been built, including mine, without deformation of the outer skin. Please consult Vans.:eek:
 
I cant agree with the other posters here, to me there is something wrong. yes they are a bear to fit, but there should not be the level of pain as described by you. take a picture and send to Vans for advice. The fact that you are deforming the outer skin raises flags for me. Many RV's have been built, including mine, without deformation of the outer skin. Please consult Vans.:eek:

Assembly instructions are incorrect...simply put, the skin should not be placed in a cradle. The skin should be opened, rib clecod by the most forward hole on the bottom, flipped and cleco'd on the top, then cleco the whole thing. This was verified by a conversation I had with the top brass at Vans. I was told the assembly instructions would be updated accordingly.
 
Thanks Aaron!

Assembly instructions are incorrect...simply put, the skin should not be placed in a cradle. The skin should be opened, rib clecod by the most forward hole on the bottom, flipped and cleco'd on the top, then cleco the whole thing. This was verified by a conversation I had with the top brass at Vans. I was told the assembly instructions would be updated accordingly.

Got the PM and also glad you updated this thread. I'll take them out of the cradle and work them as you suggest. I guess all I can do is try to laugh this off when I think about how a fairly sizeable number of us, as shown from this thread and many others, have all had to deal with this problem to one degree or another. For me the next steps were clearly to use the straps or take the tank assembly out of the cradle, so I'll try the latter and see how that goes.
 
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