burgundyja
Well Known Member
What aerobatics could i do if i do not install aerobatic oil fuel and prop on my 8a? i am looking for a list to see how much fun i will be missing if i build it cheaper. what props is everyone using on the io-390?
Van's Air Force
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aerobatics?
- Thread starter burgundyja
- Start date
lightning
Well Known Member
so no flop tubes either?
you'll still have guaranteed fun!! just no -G..
any positive G maneuver, i remember threads about guys who do quick -g maneuvers... and they "said" their engine never sputtered or appeared to have any damage from lack of oil.......... not a risk i'd wanna take
you'll still have guaranteed fun!! just no -G..
any positive G maneuver, i remember threads about guys who do quick -g maneuvers... and they "said" their engine never sputtered or appeared to have any damage from lack of oil.......... not a risk i'd wanna take
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Jamie
Well Known Member
I do not have flop tubes or inverted oil. Believe me, if you want to just go out and enjoy the airplane with light acro there is no reason to put all that other stuff in. I went and did inverted stuff with my hangar partner in his Extra 300 and I really don't enjoy the negative G stuff.
Remember that a flop tube is just one more moving part on the airplane and makes the tanks harder to build (you have to put the anti-hangups in there).
If you go with fixed pickups I would recommend getting the pre-built pickups from Van's. They are very nice with screens on the ends.
Remember that a flop tube is just one more moving part on the airplane and makes the tanks harder to build (you have to put the anti-hangups in there).
If you go with fixed pickups I would recommend getting the pre-built pickups from Van's. They are very nice with screens on the ends.
Jamie
Well Known Member
I think you mean no sustained inverted flight. I get mine upside down at least once on every single flight....my engine has never missed a beat.
I know what you're saying, but just to be clear, you can fly inverted 6-8 seconds and not see negative. One of my favorites is just pulling up to about 60, 70-degrees above horizon, rolling inverted and arcing over the top until about 60, 70-degs down then rolling upright. You can fly inverted quite a while like this and not go negative.
Inverted lazy 8's, cuban 8's, reverse cubans, loops, 4 pt roll, aileron roll, stall turns/hammerhead turns, spins, (mild, slow) snaps, etc. There are a lot of nice, mild acro maneuvers that can be done without seeing negative g's.
Anyone can fly acro in a negative g capable plane. It takes skill (and a little creativity) to smoothly fly the maneuvers while avoiding negative.
danielhv
Well Known Member
how much cost is involved in properly equiping a plane with the needed flop tubes, inverted oil, etc? This is something I will definately want, just curious on cost difference... Also, I just ordered my wing kit... but do not recal seeing anything about fuel pickups... is this something you decide later and buy extra? rather it be stock from vans or aftermarket?
Fly4Funn
Member
I just finished putting my oil system on so here are some pretty solid figures. The flop tube is 38.00 from Vans and can be bought from the online catalog.
RV-4/6/6A/7/7A/8/8A Wing tank flop tube
Part Number = IF-4/6
Price = $38.00
The inverted oils system is pricey. I looked at both the Christen and the Raven system. For the Christen system, look to spend around $2500.00 if you buy their hose kit. 814.00 for the system, 408.00 for the sump fittings, and 1118.00 for their hose kit. The Raven system which is what I went with is 565.00 for the kit, 295.00 for the sump kit with the special 45 degree fitting to work with the sump I had because the straight fitting put the hose directly into the motor mount. If you plan to use a vacuum pump, they make an adapter so you can take the oil off between the Vac pump and the case. That adapter is 185.00. I'm not using Vac so I bought the flat adapter for 63.00. Raven doesn't offer a hose kit so I went to Aircraft spruce and looked up the christen kit. They list all the parts that are in that 1118.00 kit so I had the right numbers. Ordered everything I needed from Summit Racing for a little less than 300.00. The only thing summit does not have is the MIL-H-6000 hose and the AN842-12D hose elbows so I picked them up from Spruce.
Lessons learned:
1: It's a plumbers nightmare
2: Use the small tank
3: Take your time and place everything right the first time.
4: Do not buy the Raven system from Spruce. They had my order so messed up it wasn't funny. I talked to Rob at Raven, super nice by the way, and he told me he has trouble with the way spruce puts part numbers on things. They sent me the tank and no valve because even though it is a kit, they separate it. Then they couldn't find the valve so they had to order one from guess where........Rob at Raven. He just shipped it direct to me even though Spruce said it couldn't be done that way.
Hope this helps a little. Pictures of my installation are on my website.
Raven Oil System Pictures
RV-4/6/6A/7/7A/8/8A Wing tank flop tube
Part Number = IF-4/6
Price = $38.00
The inverted oils system is pricey. I looked at both the Christen and the Raven system. For the Christen system, look to spend around $2500.00 if you buy their hose kit. 814.00 for the system, 408.00 for the sump fittings, and 1118.00 for their hose kit. The Raven system which is what I went with is 565.00 for the kit, 295.00 for the sump kit with the special 45 degree fitting to work with the sump I had because the straight fitting put the hose directly into the motor mount. If you plan to use a vacuum pump, they make an adapter so you can take the oil off between the Vac pump and the case. That adapter is 185.00. I'm not using Vac so I bought the flat adapter for 63.00. Raven doesn't offer a hose kit so I went to Aircraft spruce and looked up the christen kit. They list all the parts that are in that 1118.00 kit so I had the right numbers. Ordered everything I needed from Summit Racing for a little less than 300.00. The only thing summit does not have is the MIL-H-6000 hose and the AN842-12D hose elbows so I picked them up from Spruce.
Lessons learned:
1: It's a plumbers nightmare
2: Use the small tank
3: Take your time and place everything right the first time.
4: Do not buy the Raven system from Spruce. They had my order so messed up it wasn't funny. I talked to Rob at Raven, super nice by the way, and he told me he has trouble with the way spruce puts part numbers on things. They sent me the tank and no valve because even though it is a kit, they separate it. Then they couldn't find the valve so they had to order one from guess where........Rob at Raven. He just shipped it direct to me even though Spruce said it couldn't be done that way.
Hope this helps a little. Pictures of my installation are on my website.
Raven Oil System Pictures
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n468ac
Well Known Member
Firesleeve
Fly4fun,
I installed a christen kit for a friend and like you thought the hose kit was overpriced. That is a substantial savings for hoses from Summit. What I would like to add is the christen hose kit includes firesleeve for all the hoses. From your photos, adding firesleeve would give me better piece of mind. Does Summit carry firesleeve? Maybe substantial savings there to.
Fly4fun,
I installed a christen kit for a friend and like you thought the hose kit was overpriced. That is a substantial savings for hoses from Summit. What I would like to add is the christen hose kit includes firesleeve for all the hoses. From your photos, adding firesleeve would give me better piece of mind. Does Summit carry firesleeve? Maybe substantial savings there to.
jmartinez443
Well Known Member
Flop Tube
The flop tube is about $40 from Van's. I bought one and decided not to use it. It can be yours for $25 + shipping.
First offer takes it.
The flop tube is about $40 from Van's. I bought one and decided not to use it. It can be yours for $25 + shipping.
First offer takes it.
Fly4Funn
Member
Summit does carry firesleeve but it's right in line with the one Spruce carries pricewise. I'm still debating on covering up my nice stainless hoses though. I've heard both sides of the story so I'm on the fence yet. I used hose and fittings for the entire firewall FWD from summit and was very pleased. I used their own brand although they do carry several different name brands. If I do decide to cover them, probably less than 100.00 in firesleeve so still a big savings compared to their kit. They don't mention the firesleeve in the list of kit contents so I wasn't aware of it being included.
Andy Hill
Well Known Member
As stated, issues are:
Start with 2 Issues are keeping Oil Pressure and not covering belly with Oil. In our case, the latter was the initial motivation... solved entirely by fitting half a Raven system (on good advice from more than one source). The half is the breather => (small) Tank => Sump return. This allows Stall Turns, some negative 'g' and general fun without losing oil, or cleaning it off afterwards. Is also cheap / easy to fit
If you do more than say a couple of seconds of negative 'g', then you will see the Oil P fall, and without 3, somewhat thereafter see/hear the Prop begin to speed up (slow down if you bought 3) Depends on your attitude, someone on this site gave me a hard time saying any loss of Oil Pressure may leads to engine damage straight away. Many others say no... RVs are overpowered enough you'll be doing the Aeros <2600RPM, so the Prop speeding up will not lead to an overspeed if you are listening out
Inverted Fuel (Flop Tubes)
The least important option IMHO unless you have got the full oil system and want to fly really extended periods of negative 'g'. I have never heard the engine miss a beat - there is plenty of fuel in the system that gets filled up PDQ with +ve 'g' coming back on. You need to be a serious aerobatic enthusiast to need this
Andy Hill
RV-8 G-HILZ
- Inverted Fuel
- Inverted Oil
- Aerobatic Prop
Start with 2
Issues are keeping Oil Pressure and not covering belly with Oil. In our case, the latter was the initial motivation... solved entirely by fitting half a Raven system (on good advice from more than one source). The half is the breather => (small) Tank => Sump return. This allows Stall Turns, some negative 'g' and general fun without losing oil, or cleaning it off afterwards. Is also cheap / easy to fit If you do more than say a couple of seconds of negative 'g', then you will see the Oil P fall, and without 3, somewhat thereafter see/hear the Prop begin to speed up (slow down if you bought 3)
Depends on your attitude, someone on this site gave me a hard time saying any loss of Oil Pressure may leads to engine damage straight away. Many others say no... RVs are overpowered enough you'll be doing the Aeros <2600RPM, so the Prop speeding up will not lead to an overspeed if you are listening out Inverted Fuel (Flop Tubes)
The least important option IMHO unless you have got the full oil system and want to fly really extended periods of negative 'g'. I have never heard the engine miss a beat - there is plenty of fuel in the system that gets filled up PDQ with +ve 'g' coming back on. You need to be a serious aerobatic enthusiast to need this
Andy Hill
RV-8 G-HILZ
lluciani
Active Member
RV Basic Aerobatics
The IAC has a new category called RV Basic. The only maneuver in it for this year that results in sustained negative Gs is 1/2 of the down side of a half cuban 8. If you did it perfectly it would be -.7 G for about 2 seconds. To go easy on my engine without an inverted oil system, I have been fudging this by pulling the throttle to idle during the negative G part. I still end up with plenty of energy at the bottom for the next maneuver.
I participated in my first IAC event in the RV Basic category several weeks ago in Giddings, TX. When I landed I couldn't supress an ear to ear RV grin (complete with chattering teeth). I will be first on the sign-up list the next time they have one of these.
The IAC RV Basic maneuvers this year are a split-s, a loop, a 1/2 cuban, turns and a roll.
Luis Luciani
RV8
The IAC has a new category called RV Basic. The only maneuver in it for this year that results in sustained negative Gs is 1/2 of the down side of a half cuban 8. If you did it perfectly it would be -.7 G for about 2 seconds. To go easy on my engine without an inverted oil system, I have been fudging this by pulling the throttle to idle during the negative G part. I still end up with plenty of energy at the bottom for the next maneuver.
I participated in my first IAC event in the RV Basic category several weeks ago in Giddings, TX. When I landed I couldn't supress an ear to ear RV grin (complete with chattering teeth). I will be first on the sign-up list the next time they have one of these.
The IAC RV Basic maneuvers this year are a split-s, a loop, a 1/2 cuban, turns and a roll.
Luis Luciani
RV8
