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RV-10 true operating cost??

Larryr

I'm New Here
Now that people have been flying them around for a while, I wonder if anyone would be willing to share the *true* operating costs of their RV10. We all know what it costs to build one (everything you have<g>), but what about afterward? By true, I mean insurance, fuel, oil, that cylinder you needed to replace the month after the engine warranty expired, the wing tip fairing that got smashed into the hangar door and so forth. I'm on the certificated side of the fence right now, and am wondering whether the legendary savings in operating expenses for homebuilts are just that (legendary), or whether there actually is some non-trivial money to be saved. :confused:

-lr
 
Hi Larry

I haven't heard about any "Legendary" savings but consider this:

You can do every bit of your own maintenance and NOT pay an A&P/IA...only use an A&P for annual/condition inspections if you don't have the Repairman's cert, which I don't.

A great TruTrak or Trio or other experimental autopilot, brand new, is a fraction of what a certified one would be.

Our glass panels with synthetic vision, are a fraction of certified stuff and works very well indeed.

I have a Lightspeed, high energy ignition system on one side, which I can't put on a certified airplane.

I can run mogas WITHOUT paying for an STC if I want to.

I've said it before and said it again yesterday, looking at our options at Sebring's LSA expo...."Experimental Aviation" is where it's at.:)

You can simply get so much more bang for your buck..e.g. an RV-12 LSA for around $65,000 vs $125,000+!! for a certed airplane.

When the 'stuff' hits the fan, like the tornadoes at Sun 'n Fun, we buy cheap parts and skins from Van's and rebuild and do our own repairs as we've seen people already doing on here.

Go price a Bonanza stab or a Skyhawk wing!!



Best,
 
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What does your annual cost? Mine (condition inspection) is $150 since I have to hire an A&P.
 
In the 4 years and 400 hours of flying of ownership I have had to;
1. Repair a TruTrac cruise servo $200. ( Certified aircraft would have been $1500?)
2. Annuals are $500 tops.
3. Oil changes every 40 hours.
4. Replace a fuel pressure sender $150 (certified $$$?)
5. Tires and tubes 2 times. $300
6. Remove and replaced a LightSpeed ignition with a slick mag. $450
7. Replaced wheel pant one side & repainted both sides $350? (Certified $1,500??)
8. Upgraded door pins $150
9. Repaired radio, trans, Whelan strobe after a pilot induced battery incident $1,800
10. Being a member of VAF and serving with the finest aviators on line? Priceless!!! ;)

Repair parts are readily available at very reasonable prices compared to certified planes. All maintenance can be done yourself.

Fuel burn 13 GPH = 200 MPH, 10.5 GPH = 180 MPH Mogas only for the last 3 years.
 
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There are two references to operating the RV-10 on auto fuel in this thread. I have idly wondered if having the Lightspeed ignition would allow auto fuel ops on this engine, but have not been aware of anybody doing it. Now my interest is piqued.

I would like to know how many RV-10 (IO-540) operators use auto fuel? If so, what are your observations and experience.
 
There are two references to operating the RV-10 on auto fuel in this thread. I have idly wondered if having the Lightspeed ignition would allow auto fuel ops on this engine, but have not been aware of anybody doing it. Now my interest is piqued.

I would like to know how many RV-10 (IO-540) operators use auto fuel? If so, what are your observations and experience.

The light speed unit crapped out, it had nothing to do with the fuel used. I simply did not trust LS after that. I am waiting for Emags now. ;)
 
There are two references to operating the RV-10 on auto fuel in this thread. I have idly wondered if having the Lightspeed ignition would allow auto fuel ops on this engine, but have not been aware of anybody doing it. Now my interest is piqued.

I would like to know how many RV-10 (IO-540) operators use auto fuel? If so, what are your observations and experience.

Why would running a 540 on mogas be any different than running a 360 on mogas? It's the same engine with 2 more cylinders. I only say that because I think you can increase you data pool quite a bit.
 
operating cost

Ok right or wrong this is how i worked out the operating cost

RV10 VH-ICY

Worth $200 grand

If money in the bank

200 grand at 6% = $12000 Yes we get 6% in Aus

Interest lost $12000 a year
Fuel 100 hrs a year at 48LT hour $2 Ltr = $9600
Maintanance a year $500
Hangarage $500 a year (we own Hanger)
Insurance $4000 a year
Prop and engine overhaul $15 an hour

So roughly 28 grand to fly 100 hours a year so $280 an hour

We loved both our Rv aircraft but now hire a seneca or twin Comanche for only slightly more than our average RV cost and any dramas they fix it.

RV are awsome aircraft and we all love them. I loved building them and have flown roughly 6oo hours in the 2 aircraft. Made great money as well with selling them but i would not build one for cheap flying as in my instance it is better hiring.

Chris:)
 
Compared to renting comparable airplane

If I already owned then I would never have had the money to build.

100 hrs/yr:
Bonanza Rental= $30,000
Renters Insurance= $2000
0.25% int on savings here= +$500

My -10 Operating Cost= $9000
Insurance= $2600
Hangar Rent= $1800

Less than half to own my own. If I rented I would have nothing left of $200K after 7 years and nothing to sell or show for it. Very much like renting a house or apartment. I fly when I want. Stay as long as I want. Leave all of my personal things in the plane. 2011 vs 1970-80 model aircraft. Do all the repairs/maintenance myself. Could sell it quickly anytime for $175K. No comparison.
 
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Why would running a 540 on mogas be any different than running a 360 on mogas? It's the same engine with 2 more cylinders. I only say that because I think you can increase you data pool quite a bit.

Good point, Scott. I belatedly used the Search function and found lots of info about operating 360's and 320's on mogas. I was just surprised to hear that some of my RV-10 brethren are using mogas since I have not seen it discussed on any of the RV-10 forums.
 
RV-10 0n Mogas

I have run straight Mogas in my 10 for 2 yrs and 350+ hrs with no problems. It is a 260 HP with a carb. I do notice a slight increase with carb ice in IFR. You just need to aware of it.

Tim
 
Define true operating cost

Very difficult to answer your question.
For example you cannot include an expense for your Cessna 182 that you would also have in an RV-10 such as hangar rent, insurance, fuel and oil expenses, tire and tube changes and other maintenance items. You are allowed to do oil changes and tire changes in a certified airplane without having anybody sign it off.
Engine overhaul is no benefit in an experimental unless you do your own, which most of us don't and with the exception of a few experimental parts such as electronic ignition and injection are the same as certified engines. For most of us the eventual engine overhaul is the same expense as that of a certified aircraft.
The operating benefits boil down to savings on your annual as well as the freedom to change or upgrade anything in the panel or on the airframe that you want. Try that on a certified airplane.


Repairs to the airframe are certainly a big savings but on most RV's you won't need a lot of fixing. In 450 hrs of flying my RV-8 I never needed to fix anything on the airframe and I expect the same for my RV-10.
For me, the true savings in cost are the mental peace of knowing exactly what I am dealing with from year to year when compared to my hangar neighbors and friends who are stuck with certified planes and never know what is going to hit them at the time the dreaded annual inspection comes around.
Now, if you factor in savings in acquisition cost for a brand new Cirrus as opposed to an RV-10 You'll have a substantial amount of money you can invest at 6% in Australia.
 
Very little, really.

Good point, Scott. I belatedly used the Search function and found lots of info about operating 360's and 320's on mogas. I was just surprised to hear that some of my RV-10 brethren are using mogas since I have not seen it discussed on any of the RV-10 forums.

Dave, I seldom use mogas in the -10 because I have to carry so many 5 gallon jugs in the back of my truck, that I don't like the associated dangers...that and how tedious it is to pour into the airplane, since it holds so much. With the -6A, I could haul 4 jugs and pour a 50/50% avgas/mogas mix in the smaller tanks.

Years ago when we ran Pawnees spraying, we'd be working off a country road someplace and taxi up to the car gas pumps and 'fill 'er up' with Amoco white gas all day long, and their carbed O-540's often made TBO or better. Later, we did the same with the Cessna Agwagons and 'Trucks, with their IO-520 Conti's.

Don't know how today's mogas compares to the Amoco 'white' of years ago.

Best,
 
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I have just under 800 hours now on my RV-10 (N519RV) and I mostly fly around at 55% power just going to local dining establishments, and then 3 - 4 long cross countries where I fly at 65% power.

So for 2011 I flew 117.5 hours with a total cost of $13,173. Of that $4,681 is for the fuel (100LL). So that works out to $112/hr.

The other expenses are for things like Hanger, Insurance, Improvements, Property Taxes, Subscriptions and Supplies.

Thanks

Ray
 
some certified prices....

My other airplane is a Beechcraft Duke, and I am a member of the Duke Flyers Association.
Some of the stories I read there regarding prices direct from Beech Factory:
Front gear replacement pin (basically a little piece of steel rod, about 1" long and the size of a pencil): $5,000.
Cabin temperature thermostat (sit down before you read this): $ 14,600. I am not kidding. This is for a CABIN THERMOSTAT.
Heated pilot windshield: $ 16,000
Wing bolt replacemet CRUSH WASHERS: $ 800 each.
And so on.
Ah, it also burns 86 GPH at takeoff power and about 45 GPH in cruise....
:eek:
 
On the fence

I found a spectacular deal on a Mooney M20J at $29.5K plus $16K MOH on overtime engine. This is roughly third to half the cost of a 7A for an IFR bird. Granted the 7A would be new plus all the other factors listed above by others, but I'm in the air now at half cost. Down the road there's a break-even point at which I'll re-evaluate and likely sell the Mooney to build a 7A. So I think TCO should also include any gains made from an initial low-cost investment that creeps faster than new experimental construction with shallower slope tempered by long-term intentions. When the lines appoach intersection then I guess emotions will set in and I'll have to decide whether I like what I have enough to justify spending a bit more vs containing my losses and starting over with new construction. A couple GPH and KIAS here and there I believe is too much hair-splitting to worry about if you're having fun. My girlfriend was uneasy about the experimental stuff, so I have a chance to get her hooked by flying first and re-evaluate long-term intentions when her comfort level is more firmly established.

Also consider that my housing needs are less because the garage, tools and other construction needs are eliminated with a certificated a/c. Total I believe I saved about $70 - 100K if you consider the smaller house, which seriously resets the origin of the TCO graph and extends the break-even point.

Good luck on your quest. You'll likely find that everyone has an opinion that at least partially justifies what mistakes we may have made :rolleyes:
 
You'll likely find that everyone has an opinion that at least partially justifies what mistakes we may have made :rolleyes:

Quite right.

Before I bought my RV I was in a flying club with a nice Bonanza. For sake of argument lets assume the Bonanza is equivalent in speed, performance and capability (for my missions) as the RV.

To go from Denver to Minneapolis and back, which is a trip I expect to make at least a couple times a year, it would cost me about $1150 to take the Bonanza. That included the $78/hr dry rate for the plane, plus gas. The dry rate covers hangar, insurance, maintenance, engine reserve etc., basically everything.

The RV would cost about $275 for gas. When I imagine taking the trip, I inevitably compare the incremental costs to what it would cost to fly in a big aluminum mailing tube, and I could never justify the Bonanza, so I never took it.

So, even though the RV cost is $275 + ~$70K + $1500/yr (insurance) + $3200/yr (hangar) + oil/annual/misc., the incremental cost is still only $275, or around the cost of a commercial ticket. If I bring my wife, even better.

Examining GA aircraft ownership in an Excel spreadsheet is almost never going to add up. So what.

Flying yourself is infinitely more cool though, and as someone else said, owning your own plane is priceless. :D
 
....
So, even though the RV cost is $275 + ~$70K + $1500/yr (insurance) + $3200/yr (hangar) + oil/annual/misc., the incremental cost is still only $275, or around the cost of a commercial ticket. If I bring my wife, even better.

......
Flying yourself is infinitely more cool though, and as someone else said, owning your own plane is priceless. :D

That is a key. If you travel to multiple US destinations on any trip with your spouse, GA will usually work out cheaper than the airlines - and it's much more interesting landing in the smaller US communities that taking a big metal tube to a large city airport...:)
 
Indeed:D

Ray posted above around$117/hr, we pay about $2/litre and allow $35 for overhaul nd general maintenance so that gives a variable of $125. Hangarage and insurance adds about $5kpa so over 220 hours that's another $20/25. So for round numbers call it $150/hr.

Now add to this, cost of capital or if you borrowed interest. Either way you are paying, if I had that $$$ in the bank what would I yield? Add that. Another $50 per hour:eek:

What about your own flying expenses, charts, training, renewals.....iPads etc.

So if I do a thorough forensic accounting study, I come up to a true cost of $225 per hour.

DO NOT LET YOUR WIFE READ THIS POST :eek:

Now for some good news, price up the running cost of a new G36 Bonanza. Or even a similar purchase price F33A.......will make the RV10 look more like a printing press with dollar bills pouring out of it :)
 
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