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Catto 3 blade coming apart

Michael Henning

Well Known Member
A buddy of mine flying a GlasairII with a Catto 3 blade threw off about 4 inches of the nickel leading edge. Anyone else hear of something like that? Catto is sending him a new prop, which is great.
 
Not yet. I know aerobatic guys turning their nickel edge Cattos 3,000+ RPM. First integrity issue I've heard of with a Catto.
 
Mike. Do you know what the date of manufacture was of that prop? I was the first UK customer to receive the nickel leading edge made in December 2010.
 
Bob,
The prop was ordered last summer and pitched for his HP/Plane configuration. He made it back to his field at idle, said the plane shook violently at higher rpms, and even at idle it was pretty bad. Catto is taking care of it, and am sure he will find out why it failed. When I get the reason it failed, I will post it.
 
Another data point.

I purchased a Catto two blade last year with the nickel leading edge. I had it about 8 months when I noticed a nick on the leading edge with a hairline crack going straight back. I fly off of pavement but still must of sucked up some small rock somewhere.

I contacted catto and was told it needed replaced and shouldn't put too many more hours on it. There is even a guideline they use for grounding based on crack size, where its at etc. . I dont remember the guidelines but it was based on the props they were selling on the carbon cubs I believe.

So, about $500 later and several weeks I was flying again. My new prop that I had purchased to replace my Sterba cost almost as much as the sterba originally did just to repair a rock chip and my piece of mind is gone.

I had an Aymar Demuth wood prop loose a chunk a few years ago and didn't enjoy the excitement that followed. I convinced my wife that this big $ prop was the answer and would give us the piece of mind we wanted.

I believe it still should be fine for rain. .. but definetly cant take any fod and I look it over closely before EVERY flight and would suggest anyone flying behind one do the same and closely. The crack I had was only a hairline and easy to miss.

Trust me, you definetly dont want to be losing pieces of the prop in flight. Been there, done that!
 
Hmmm, I found it interesting Craig himself talked me out of the nickel leading edge when I ordered my prop almost 1 1/2 years ago.
 
Don, what was Craig's argument against the nickel edge? I have an older 3B (no tape or nickel) on the RV-6 (o-360) and so far it's been great. Just some minor scrapes and scuffs.
 
Don, what was Craig's argument against the nickel edge? I have an older 3B (no tape or nickel) on the RV-6 (o-360) and so far it's been great. Just some minor scrapes and scuffs.

I called him to order my 3 blade and asked him about nickel edges. I got a 30 minute education on the phone. He claimed the nickel really didn't offer that much advantage in that it was still prone to rock damage and was harder to repair if damaged and also had the possibility of delaminating and cracking at the damaged area where the composite was really easy to fix and more forgiving. The only advantage he mentioned (besides looking cool) was the lack of a restriction flying in moderate precip. He claimed the restriction was a non issue since if you were flying in moderate precip you would reduce power anyway... He did tell me some of the large diameter carbon cub props were delaminating the nickel edge. He solved that problem, and though it was never a problem in smaller diameter rv props it has happened on a few.
Didn't sound like it was worth the extra expense to me so mine doesn't have the nickel. Love the prop too!! Craig is an awesome guy, just give him a call and he will give you a terrific education.
 
Interesting about the nickel leading edge...I ordered my 3-blade prop a few months ago and can't recall Craig trying to persuade me one way or the other.

BTW, if you ever get a chance to visit his facility in the California central Sierra Nevada foothills, do so. It's very impressive the amount of high-tech he uses in both design and manufacturing. He'll be moving everything to a local airport in August, so it will be easier to visit. Worth going out of your way some, or picking up your prop in person if you can.
 
Wish Id have got conversation.

I called him to order my 3 blade and asked him about nickel edges. I got a 30 minute education on the phone. He claimed the nickel really didn't offer that much advantage in that it was still prone to rock damage and was harder to repair if damaged and also had the possibility of delaminating and cracking at the damaged area where the composite was really easy to fix and more forgiving. The only advantage he mentioned (besides looking cool) was the lack of a restriction flying in moderate precip. He claimed the restriction was a non issue since if you were flying in moderate precip you would reduce power anyway... He did tell me some of the large diameter carbon cub props were delaminating the nickel edge. He solved that problem, and though it was never a problem in smaller diameter rv props it has happened on a few.
Didn't sound like it was worth the extra expense to me so mine doesn't have the nickel. Love the prop too!! Craig is an awesome guy, just give him a call and he will give you a terrific education.


Wish Id have got that conversation. Id be almost a $1000 the wiser. :eek:
 
Wish Id have got that conversation. Id be almost a $1000 the wiser. :eek:

I have an older 3 blade Catto prop hanging on the wall of my garage because the leading edge kept eroding. In moisture free air mine worked great. Fly it in moisture as my flying mandated and suffer the results. Leading edge tape worked great where I could keep it on the prop but the tips were near impossible to keep tape on. Throttling back did not work for me; of course I had the older non-carbon fiber composite blades which may be a factor.
I really liked the Catto prop but I would not buy one again without the metal leading edge.
 
The father of a friend was operating a Catto with nickel leading edges on his float-equipped GlaStar. A chunk of the leading edge delaminated and ending up spearing into the top of the float. Not good. Craig did a great job of making things right for this customer, but still, the thought of losing a chunk of prop is in the back of this owner's mind all the time.

With respect to nickel leading edges, that material is harder than a traditional aluminum prop like the Sensi's and McCauley's we see on many airplanes. It's the quality of the substrate material that dictates how well the nickel holds up. I have a Warp Drive with nickel leading edges and after several years of operation it looks as good as new. I fly from asphalt, gravel and grass and don't throttle back in the rain. The nickel has dulled to a nice flat grey patina (save for the brighter-colored bug splats), but other than that, it's in perfect shape.
 
Feedback from my earlier post (#3) Contacted Craig with photos of hairline crack starting from screw head (not on every head) this was his replies:

Reply 1. This crack from the screw hole is somewhat common. Please let me know your engine specs in regards to compression ratio and if you are running an electronic ignition.

The cracks from the screw hole are not considered ?un-airworthy? and are an allowable when it comes to airworthiness. This has been taken from what Hartzell considers allowables for airworthiness. Our Nickel leading edges are made by the same supplier as Hartzells.

We would like to replace the propeller for you as these leading edges were our first produced and in todays production the hole has been eliminated and the Nickel is wider and longer providing more bonding surface area. The blade construction has also changed in regards to increasing the natural frequency of the blade itself, to be more in line with that of the Nickel and the power pulses of the engine.

If the cracks were in the last 6 to 8 inches of the blade, then we would want to replace immediately.

Reply 2. Your engine is good. With this setup [8.5:1 and Dual P-Mags], you are fine. In your preflight inspections, just inspect about 6? from the tip on the Nickel. With the high compression and electronic ignitions, mainly the high compression, this is the region that has the harmonic issue. The areas of the cracks you are seeing are not from harmonics, but a stress forced area from the screw hole.

So back flying and first class customer service in the offing as has so often been said about Craig Catto.
 
Update

Just an update- The guy in Maine with the GlasAir got a new prop and a bill for $2500. No reason was given for the failure. Prop had less than 100 hours.
 
I want to make some corrections in the postings about the Catto Popellers with the nickel leading edges. The propeller in question was a 2 bladed propeller on a Glasair, and the propeller did not come apart. We have an excellent reputation for structural integrity of our propellers.
The owner had contacted me about a small crack found in the nickel during a preflight inspection. My return email recommended that the propeller be returned for repair or replacement. Due to a shortage of nickel at the time, the owner was told it would be at least 4 weeks before we could do the repairs or replace it. The owner elected to continue to fly the aircraft. The nickel that separated from the propeller was a 7? tip section that weighed 32 grams.
This 320 engine was of high compression and also had electronic ignition. If you modify your engine from ?stock? to high compression and electronic ignition, you are also modifying the natural frequencies of the engine. This can be catastrophic with a metal propeller. Even the standard metal propeller on the standard 320 has RPM restrictions because of this. After about a year of testing and tens of thousands of dollars invested, we now have one of the most advanced Data Acquisition Systems available to do vibration surveys on propellers. It was this DAQ system that we developed that was recently used in the ASTM LSA vibration survey of the CarbonCub propeller. Catto Propellers is the first to comply with the latest requirements set forth by ASTM. (the regulatory system for LSA aircraft)
Once we had the cooperation of the engine manufactures with vibration data and the ability to perform these advanced vibration surveys, it was found that the natural frequencies of the earlier design of the propellers coincided with the natural frequencies of the engine. Most can relate to a metal propeller on a 360 engine with the yellow arc at 1950-2250rpm. This is the same reason why an all metal prop on the RV 320?s has the 2600rpm limitation. Once we modified the laminate schedule of the propeller blade which changed its natural frequency, this solved the issues with cracking.
It is impossible for us to do a vibration survey on every installation of engine type, engine modifications, change in compression ratios and change in timing by electronic ignitions. However, what we do know now is operating at high compression ratios and having electronic ignitions with the early design of propellers could be subject to having the nickel crack. As always, diligence should be used during preflight inspections.
One post speculated that I did not recommend nickel because of possible problems. This is not true. I recommend in certain circumstances that the customer install the propeller without the nickel at first in case they desired a pitch modification. In order to install the nickel, we must also repaint the propeller, so it much easier and less costly to do it all at once.
In the world of experimental aircraft, we do all that we can to insure the propellers are operated in a safe manner and tested to insure safe operation. Unlike certified aircraft, you have the pleasure of changing design to your liking, includes engines and electronic ignitions. Sometimes when these simple changes are made, there can be consequences that must be considered. The important part of all of this is the learning, and making changes accordingly to insure the safest operation.
 
Great post Craig, thanks for jumping on board. Im the new owner of an O-320 powered RV-6 down in Fresno and I figured I would be talking to you about a prop. I'm actually pretty satisfied for now with the Warnke that came on the airplane, so a prop has moved down on my list of priorities.

I still want to come up to Jackson and see your operation at some point though.

Doug
 
Craig-

Thanks for the update. I am running an IO-320 with electronic ignition that has variable timing. I will continue to closely inspect the prop with your nickel plating during my normal preflight inspection. So far I only have 42 hours, and the prop is working great.
 
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Happy Happy

50 some hours on my three blade Nickel with a O320 and Lightspeed Plasma 3 and could not be happier. The only time I will maybe change prop is when and if Craig makes a constant speed prop.:)
 
Catto Prop move

Has Catto Propeller completed their relocation? To what airport are they relocating?

Larry Tompkins
544WB -6A
W52 Battle Ground, WA
 
Upstairs Guest

Don't know which airport this guy came from but he did arrive yesterday via Fedex and will reside in an upstairs bedroom until his assignment is activated. :)

I had an informal briefing by Nicole a couple weeks ago regarding the substance of this thread and have no qualms whatever about the prop - with or without the nickel, had the same prop without nickel on the 7 and was very satisfied with it.

This unit has the nickel as you can see, but what you can not see is a plastic boot shield from the hub to where the nickel starts, it should be very impervious to rain. The nickel extends farther out to the tips than one could get a plastic boot with the non-nickel blades.

I would order another one in a heart beat, these props are a good value for a simple, light weight operation.






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That upstairs guest is BEAUUUTIFUL!

I also have a great deal of confidence in Craig's designs. Been a happy Catto 3 blade driver for 7+ years!

Cheers,

db
 
Has Catto Propeller completed their relocation? To what airport are they relocating?

Larry Tompkins
544WB -6A
W52 Battle Ground, WA

Craig can chime in and correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard that he's relocating to Calaveras County Airport (CPU) in the scenic western foothills of the Sierra Nevada.

Edited to add: I was wrong! See post below; Craig is moving to Jackson, the next big town north.

Thanks, Bob K.
 
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Actually I'm running 9.5:1, but that's close.

The only problem I've ever had was when we tried testing the nickel leading edge on the old fiberglass prop.
It seem that the fiberglass flexed too much for the nickel.
 
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Actually I'm running 9.5:1, but that's close.

The only problem I've ever had was when we tried the nickel leading edge on the old fiberglass prop.
It seem that the fiberglass flexed too much for the nickel.

Ah, sorry Mel... someone here is flying this combo. :)

I'm still waiting for Craig to ship my replacement prop... been a long time coming.
 
Actually I'm running 9.5:1, but that's close.

The only problem I've ever had was when we tried testing the nickel leading edge on the old fiberglass prop.
It seem that the fiberglass flexed too much for the nickel.

I would like to have a Catto prop. Are there other acceptable prop. options with high compression pistons? I'd like to have some comparisons. Probably some big $$ stuff I'm sure.
 
Actually I'm running 9.5:1, but that's close.

The only problem I've ever had was when we tried testing the nickel leading edge on the old fiberglass prop.
It seem that the fiberglass flexed too much for the nickel.

I should add that I'm now running a carbon fiber Catto 3-blade with the nickel leading edge.
Recently during my BFR, the instructor remarked that it is "as smooth as a turbine".
 
Preflight cracks

Last year I discovered multiple cracks in the nickel leading edge of my Catto prop after a friend flew my plane up to Seattle to deliver it. Of course, it was after hours, so I couldn't reach Craig but did connect with Randy at Cubcrafters who advised that we not fly it.

Craig promptly repaired it and I was back in the air in a couple weeks. A few months later, it happened again, to the point that one spot was starting to peel. I sent a pict to Craig and he put me on the list for a brand new prop. It took a while due to backlog, but it was winter anyway.

I now have a brand new prop with about 20 hrs on it and check it carefully every time, but haven't seen any hint of a crack.

I can't say enough positive about Craig's attitude in dealing with my situation. He's a great guy and willing to make things right, which has to be hard for a small business.
 
Are Catto Props suitable on a O-320 with 10:1 compression with Mags?

I have a o-320 with 10:1 with mags. I ran a 3 blade fiberglass Catto prop for a few years without issue other than the leading edge would not tolerate flying in moisture. Sure hope Craig can get the issues sorted out with his newer carbon fiber nickel leading edge versions as that would be a winning combination in my view.
 
does anybody

happen to know which booth Craig is in at Oshkosh. My prop has a hairline crack in the nickel and would like to show him a picture of it and what to do.

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Randy
8A
 
Catto and standard 13" Vans spinner

Hello,

May I ask for a spinner for Catto propeller? Is the standard 13" Vans spinner siutable for Catto propeller?

BR
Witold
 
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