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Canada - MDRA inspectors. What are they looking for?

Lycosaurus

Lycosaurus

Well Known Member
I just sold my aluminum heater vent box that goes on the firewall, because I had heard that one of our builders here in Ottawa was snagged for not having a stainless steel one. This brought a question from Rick at VAF as to what he should do in order to satisfy MDRA requirements. He has not been able to reach them yet.

I replied to him with the info posted below, and he suggested that this should be posted on the forums.

I'm therefore posting here what I know, some first hand knowledge as well as heresay. Hopefully other Canadians can chime in with their experience, as this would certainly help new builders. Please correct me if I am wrong. Would be really really nice if this information was already on the MDRA site, no?
[actually a checklist does exist, but lacks some details in certain areas .... http://www.md-ra.com/pdfs/what_inspectors_ck.zip More detail and applicability to the RV series would be nice]


------------------------

Here's some things I've heard from MDRA inspector, or from other people that were inspected by MDRA.

  • Baggage floor must either be removable, or have access hatches so area can be inspected for damage or corrosion (conversation with inspector in 2002)
  • Gascolator is required by MDRA (conversation with inspector). I'm not sure if this is a requirement, but I've extended the drain so I can drain daily.
  • Any part that rotates, must have a bolt with castle-ated nut and cotter pin (elevators, rudder, control sticks etc.). This was flagged as a snag by an inspector recently.
  • Pre-cover inspection for fuel tanks must have the rivet shop heads visible. Only after inspection can you cover them with proseal. From conversation with inspector in 2002 and 2005.
  • Local builder here was snagged for the aluminum air box. His fix will be to replace just the flap with stainless
  • Wiring must all be aircraft grade (Tefzel or such). Some builders I know used PVC insulated wires for their projects just a couple of years ago .. no more.
  • I heard that some MDRA inspectors were giving some builders a hassle regarding halon fire extinguishers [this was back in 2005, I think]. I believe this is cleared up now, since the inspector had misinterpreted a Transport advisory letter. Can anyone comment? I plan to use halon, and will certainly push this point.
  • Fire extinguisher on-board is a requirement. Not sure, but I would believe that 2 lbs is adequate amount.
  • No nylocs fwfwd, only metal nuts.
  • Electrical wires must be routed over (not under) fuel lines. My rule, but I heard this through the grapevine (and AC43).

P.S. I have already had my precover inspection in 2005, and had no snags. I want to be well prepared for my final inspection (hopefully this summer), so am looking to draw up a detailed list that would benefit everyone.
 
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My coments in blue. !

Boy I feel for you
Lycosaurus said:
Here's some things I've heard from MDRA inspector, or from other people that were inspected by MDRA.

  • Baggage floor must either be removable, or have access hatches so area can be inspected for damage or corrosion (conversation with inspector)

    Yes, for your preclose inspection but not as a finished product:confused: First I've heard of that one.

  • Gascolator is required by MDRA (conversation with inspector). I'm not sure if this is a requirement, but I've extended the drain so I can drain daily.

    Yes

  • Any part that rotates, must have a bolt with castle-ated nut and cotter pin (elevators, rudder, control sticks etc.). This was flagged as a snag by inspector recently.

    I'll preface my coments with the fact that my MDRA Inspector is an aeronautical engineer:
    My pre-close inspection included Emp, Fuse and wings. No snags. I don't have casellated nuts on my flap hinge bolts or on my ailorons...but I plan to change this. It just makes sense.

  • Pre-cover inspection for fuel tanks must have the rivet shop heads visible. Only after inspection can you cover them with proseal (I was not too happy about that one). From conversation with inspector.

    Q/B tanks, proseal EVERY WHERE...pass.

  • Local builder here was snagged for the aluminum air box. His fix will be to replace just the flap with stainless (not a total fix, but will probably satisfy the authorities). I don't want to argue with an inspector... for $100 bucks, I'll just get it done with.

    I've got a stainless airbox, but In an E-mail from Vans regarding whether to use an aluminum airbox or stainless one, Vans comments were...If you've got a rageing fire in front, you've a lot more problems than wondering if you should have put a stainless airbox out front!:eek:

  • Wiring must all be aircraft grade (Tefzel or such). Some builders I know used PVC insulated wires for their projects just a couple of years ago .. no more. Heard 2nd hand from an inspector.

    Tefzel makes more sense. For literaly $20.00 why would one put in auto wiring?

  • I heard that some MDRA inspectors were giving some builders a hassle regarding halon fire extinguishers. I believe this is cleared up now, since the inspector has misinterpreted the regulation. Can anyone comment? I plan to use halon, and will certainly push this point if there is resistance.
  • Fire extinguisher on-board is a requirement. Not sure, but I would believe that 2 lbs is adequate amount.

    I would love to put in a Halon fire extinghuisher. Is it legal now?

  • No nylocs fwfwd, only metal nuts.

    Yes

  • Electrical wires must be routed over (not under) fuel lines. My rule, but I heard this through the grapevine (and AC43).
Click to expand...

Don't know, can't comment

I know when we call for an inspection we all hope things will go well (MDRA inspections are not free) So when things go South it really is a pain!
All the best for your next inspection!
Regards,
 
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It's all good stuff

lorne green said:
Boy I feel for you
Click to expand...
:confused:

Why? My pre-cover inspection had no snags. I was well prepared, it all went smoothly and passed with flying colors. The inspectors were professional and knowledgeable.

I plan to have a final inspection this summer and making sure I'm well prepared for that too. My previous comments are not a gripe against the inspection, just statements of what other builders are experiencing. Mostly, it's all good stuff. Just that it would be good to have a list like this on the MDRA website, no? In the meantime, this is my way of passing on this information, and hopefully others can contribute to it as well. I've already adhered to all the posted requirements (haven't bought the fire-extinguisher yet though).

Halon is legal for certain purposes, and aviation is exempted from the ban (can only use recycled halon though). I checked with our dept of environment, and all seems fine. I'll need to get that in writing though (I want to import some from the US). You can buy halon from a Montreal firm that produces extinguishers for aviation. $250 though for 2 lbs, and you can get same size for about half that cost in the U.S.

Here some info from Environment Canada site:
http://www.ec.gc.ca/ozone/docs/sands/halons/en/cop/p3.cfm

I extracted some excerpts:

However, for some applications, satisfactory alternatives are not yet perfected. These include:
  1. applications with space and/or weight restrictions (i.e., aircraft, submarines, military tactical personnel carriers, and so on); and
  2. applications where inerting concentrations of agent must be achieved in occupied areas.
Although producing halons is prohibited around the world, it should be emphasized that the USE of existing halons is NOT prohibited.​
Alternatives can satisfactorily replace halon 1211 in most applications with very few exceptions (such as fire protection on aircraft or submarines). ​
You are right, the fuel tanks, if pre-built, do not need an inspection. If you build them yourself though, they need to be part of the pre-cover inspection, and all rivet shop heads must be inspectable.
 
Re Halon Fire Extinguisher

Seems to me the 2 lb fire extinguisher is overkill. I recently bought a 14 oz Halon from Aircraft Spruce (Canada) - just over $100 - for a recently imported RV-4. Even that size says to have a minimum of 110 cubic feet of enclosed space before using it, the RV-4 has less than that. Import inspection scheduled for Feb 23.
 
Aluminum INADEQUATE

The heat box on the firewall is totally inadequate!! Vans has an excellent aircraft kit, and they are a great company, however I am quite upset with the comment about the raging fire up front posted by Lorne Green relayed from Vans Aircraft. Fire in the engine compartment is a deadly event indeed, and that is why there is a stainless steel firewall. Now to save say twenty dollars and stick an aluminum cabin heat box on there is absolute ridiculious. Two thousand degree flame blowing through a 2 inch hole would most certainly incapacitate the occupants most painfully. Also all firewall penetration points, throttle, wires, what have you, should have stainless steel firewall shields, or some sort of fire protection. I highly doubt that the palstic snap bushings supplied with the kit would be adequate in a hot situation. The firewall is exactly what it is a FIRE WALL. Even if it only buys you one extra minute, that extra minute could be the difference between living or dying.

My aluminum one that is prosealed on is somehow going to come off. I am going to install a stainless one.

Jarvis
 
Lycosaurus said:
Here's some things I've heard from MDRA inspector, or from other people that were inspected by MDRA.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you build according to Vans plans/instructions and AC43 and MDRA or Transport Canada tell you something is not right politely ask them to show you a written reference. Rules change, often they come back with a new attitude after looking for written confirmation of their "opinion".
Click to expand...
 
Whelen strobe cables

Lycosaurus said:
[*]Wiring must all be aircraft grade (Tefzel or such). Some builders I know used PVC insulated wires for their projects just a couple of years ago .. no more. Heard 2nd hand from an inspector.
Click to expand...

Does this include the certified PVC strobe cables supplied by Whelen?

gil A
 
No laughing matter

jrvssgl said:
The heat box on the firewall is totally inadequate!! Vans has an excellent aircraft kit, and they are a great company, however I am quite upset with the comment about the raging fire up front posted by Lorne Green relayed from Vans Aircraft. Fire in the engine compartment is a deadly event indeed, and that is why there is a stainless steel firewall.
My aluminum one that is prosealed on is somehow going to come off. I am going to install a stainless one.

Jarvis
Click to expand...
Jarvis,
I didn't mean to upset anyone. By building our aircraft correctly and with regular maintenence, we will see years of trouble free flying. I would agree Vans makes a great kit!
 
az_gila said:
Does this include the certified PVC strobe cables supplied by Whelen?

gil A
Click to expand...

You are right, Gil. This is something that has bothered me some as well. My justification is that there is a minimal amount in the cockpit, since most of that wiring is routed to the wings or tail. It's all about the noxious smoke that is generated by PVC as opposed to Tefzel. The amount of smoke is substantially less and at a higher temperature for Tefzel.

So how did Whelen get their units approved for use in certified planes with such wire?

Other wires with pvc are the flap motor and electric fuel pump (carb). I cut off the excess wire and attached to tefzel. Again, minimal amount of pvc is the justification.
 
SMO said:
Seems to me the 2 lb fire extinguisher is overkill. I recently bought a 14 oz Halon from Aircraft Spruce (Canada) - just over $100 - for a recently imported RV-4. Even that size says to have a minimum of 110 cubic feet of enclosed space before using it, the RV-4 has less than that. Import inspection scheduled for Feb 23.
Click to expand...


You are right about the sizing, Mark. I was using the conventional extinguisher sizing, when in fact you need less for the halon.
Were you able to have it shipped, and was there a hazmat fee?

On that same note, I believe you need to make sure you have the double strapped support for the extinguisher (so it doesn't become a projectile during sudden deceleration).
 
MDRA

Great postings...we can all save ourselves some headaches if we discuss some of this and seperate fact from fiction. Alfio, i have another guy on line that i chat with that has build one beautiful rv, and is now building a 10. I fired off some questions to him and he got back to me last night with another interesting point.
He is now an INSPECTOR , and claims the RIVETS where a topic of discussion in his training? I have asked for details, before i get to excited. He was specifically suggesting that one buy aftermarket rivets for ALL firewall MOUNTED work. Anybody ever heard that before? STAINLESS or fire resistant rivets on the firewall? Also, strongly suggested firewall fireproofing application as something possibly worth investigating. I certainly undertand the safety issues, but then Vans position that ...aluminum is good enough if you have that big a problem. Have their been many cases of major fire raging in the fwf and pilots going down. That is VERY very very rare isnt it? He did mention that i guess inspectors have a fair bit of "room" for what they insist on based on the builders quality etc. If they think you are cutting corners, they can insist on more failsafes..i think that was what he eluded to.

I think like someone mentioned...getting FACT and written details is better than building on rumours. I have an open file at MDRA, but have not had any preclose inspections yet and cant get them to repsond to emails so will make some calls tomorrow from the office.

I have no issue doing all smart and safe stuff....but things like having to have baggage floor removable is silly IMHO. Thats a whack of nutplates.

Throw in any suggestions or comments anybody and save me some headaches here. I have a fellow builder that is ready to fly in a couple months here that went with alum airbox on vans comments. Is that for sure a squawk. Hmmm If i get any GOOD written specs on any of this from MDRA, i will forward it.
 
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Had it shipped

Lycosaurus said:
Were you able to have it shipped, and was there a hazmat fee?
Click to expand...

Aircraft Spruce in Toronto had this in stock and shipped it to BC via DHL. I think the total cost including shipping and taxes was $136. It came with only a single strap. I will likely mount this on the back of the front seat where I can still reach it while belted in.
 
I'd hope that all inspectors on both sides of the border use common sense when looking at aircraft. It is funny that some are ok with aluminum fuel lines and fittings FF but not ok with an aluminum heater box just as a for instance.

The one RV ground fuel fire a year or so ago melted the belly skin through in less than 30 seconds if I remember yet I read a stupid article by a Canadian inspector a few years back talking about firewall integrity and how everything should be able to withstand a 1400F blaze for 20-30 minutes. We all know you and the plane will be very dead in less than 2-3 minutes in the case of a fuel fire. An engine fire will progress very quickly through the glass cowling and out the air exit into the belly skin in flight.

With regard to wiring, where is the line drawn on how much PVC wiring is OK? Several things commonly used on RVs like Facet fuel pumps, flap actuator, ELT remote cable, GPS harnesses etc. use PVC insulated wire.
 
I have been directly involved with seven MDRA inspections and helped numerous other builders through the system. The MDRA system is getting better and better and the inspectors are increasingly applying more consistent rulings. If you are building a RV and you follow the plans, install a gascolator, put cotter pins in places where the bolts actually turn. You will not have any problems. Installing the best heat box you can just makes sense and they do not cost very much more than the cheap version. I do believe that the hinge and actual door have to be stainless. As far as being able to inspect behind panels, the rules clearly state that no structure that you have built yourself can be closed prior to an inspection. That only makes sense. This does not include factory built tanks, ailerons etc.
Feel free to contact me directly 519-631-1369 should you have any questions with the canadian system.
 
My inspector was very reasonable for the pre closing inspection. I got a little carried away and closed some of the stuff up a little more then I should have, but he was very good about it. I got picked up on a couple of minor edge distance items, my defence plea being that the holes were pre-drilled at the factory.

I think the key is don't get too creative and stick to the plans, and be honest with yourself regarding the quality of the workmanship. You should have very few problems.
 
Cabin heat box and Carb Heat

A fire is a very very very rare occurance indeed but we should all approach matters like this with the attitude that we are going to eliminate all known potential risks from our aircraft. We should all learn from mistakes made from others in the past and apply them to our projects, as we will not live long enough to make all the mistakes ourself. The attitude that we should not worry about something, as there could be bigger problems, or is a rare event, really does not say much for us homebuilders. Rare events are still that, an event, and it has happened in the past. Learn from other peoples mistakes, and apply solutions that help eliminate risk.

On to the Carb Heat issue. I understand that vans carb heat setup is much on the cool side, and many report that there is not even an RPM drop when carb heat is applied. Is there any regulation on how much heat has to be available or is it up to us as the builder. I understand that there are other options such as robbinswings.com which sells a product similar to vans arrangement but is supposed to be considerably hotter. Any other ideas or suggestions welcome.

Jarvis
 
safety first of course.

Jarvis...i dont think you understood what i was saying. Of course safety is number one. No question...i happen to think my life and that of my passengers is pretty darn important to my ongoing happiness. BUT...my point with the air box...is that if vans says its fine, and thousands are built that way but the MDRA says no...i can do that upgrade. But..where does common sense come in. AFP says a gascolator is not wise after the pump, but MDRA insists. I was told i should replace all fw rivets with steel rivets. Vans doesnt?
Common sense stuff yes...but the rules and them being practical are important. We COULD install halon, coat it all in fireproofing, make all conduit metal, install a ballistic chute system....and even wear chutes incase that stuff didnt do it. Heck, dress in fireproof overalls and look like Nascar guys! Sorry, no flame intended and of course safety ist but your post made it sound like we were trying to cut corners and give homebuilders a bad image. Thats is ridiculous, i will pay for and install anything that makes sense...but i am not going to jump onto the doomsday bandwagon, or i may as well give up flying. Fly high and live well.
 
Rick

I will not continue on with this after this post. I am not interested in starting arguments, and your build is your build. I do not even care about the cabin heat box. Steel rivets, that is ridiculous!!! I am not saying wear NASCAR Coveralls!! What upsets me the most is the ?T WONT HAPPEN TO ME ATTITUDE! I fly lots! No I am not some kind of safety FREAK. But yes I do use common sense and I am always trying to eliminate risk. I love flying and no it does not scare me. I was not trying to offend anyone in this forum. IMOH.

Jarvis
 
jrvssgl said:
A fire is a very very very rare occurance indeed but we should all approach matters like this with the attitude that we are going to eliminate all known potential risks from our aircraft.
Click to expand...

Since I'm in the heating business, and have dealt with fire producing machines for 37 years; it's my opinion that a fire of hot enough proportions; will indeed melt the cowl, melt the canopy, and wipe out the underbelly pan, as mentioned by someone else. I will be sure to switch the fuel selector to "off" to minimize additional fire fuel, and hope for the best. In the meantime, I'm not changing to an SS heat box.

As to the carb heat, I'm not too worried about that either. Being a "Piper" trained pilot, and knowing that Lycomings get a bit of air pre-heated from the oil warmed induction box...................I don't use carb heat for every landing; as in some earlier Cessna POH's.

I know that the carb heat was re-designed with the flange for additional heated cowl air, after the NTSB identified a lack of air flow in an earlier RV6A with 2" scat tubing and no open flange. And with the newer design, I'm not about to change that either.

And BTW, an engine compartment fire, did bring down a nearly new, and certified Air Commander; right across the street from where I live ( I do live next to an airport). My house was only in the planning stage, at the time. As I remember, it was a broken exhaust fitting.

L.Adamson
 
The gascolator topic is a hot one on FI and EFI installations. They serve no purpose on either and are probably more of a liability than an asset. I do think quick drains at all low points including header tanks on EFI setups does make sense.

I have no problem with logical suggestions and I have found both inspectors I have dealt with so far to be both fair, thorough and logical- but I have heard stories of some who have not been.

Steel rivets on the firewall make no sense with a glass cowling and the belly exit duct. The airplane will perish long before the firewall falls off from flame ingress aft of the firewall.
 
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Mechnical Airspeed Requirement?

I had the pre-coved inspection completed last Friday for the airframe. Somehow the topic of different EFIS units was discussed and the MDRA inspector said that I required at least a mechanical airspeed indicator and possibly a mechanical altimeter. (Night VFR) I have been reading though the TC regulations and cannot find this requirement. I am planning 4 different methods of airspeed information (EFIS, EI engine monitor, GPS and AOA). I think the hazard would be forgetting to remove the Pitot tube cover?

Has anyone else heard of this requirement?

(He was fine with a Halon fire extinguisher.)


Thanks

Paul
 
B737NG said:
I had the pre-coved inspection completed last Friday for the airframe. Somehow the topic of different EFIS units was discussed and the MDRA inspector said that I required at least a mechanical airspeed indicator and possibly a mechanical altimeter. (Night VFR) I have been reading though the TC regulations and cannot find this requirement. I am planning 4 different methods of airspeed information (EFIS, EI engine monitor, GPS and AOA). I think the hazard would be forgetting to remove the Pitot tube cover?

Has anyone else heard of this requirement?
Click to expand...
There is no regulatory requirement for these instruments. The EFIS would satisfy the regs for flight instruments all by itself. It seems the MDRA is trying to impose their own judgements about safety on builders. That isn't their mandate.
 
I have not heard of that either, however my MDRA inpector told me that a Mechanical Compass is needed in the homebuilt as is in any aircraft. Also I remember him saying something about multilingual labelling of everything. I plan on bringing my labeller to the airport, He can translate it to french for me as he looks over the rest of the plane if he is so inclined.

Jarvis
 
Placards, Signs and Decals

jrvssgl said:
I have not heard of that either, however my MDRA inpector told me that a Mechanical Compass is needed in the homebuilt as is in any aircraft. Also I remember him saying something about multilingual labelling of everything. I plan on bringing my labeller to the airport, He can translate it to french for me as he looks over the rest of the plane if he is so inclined.

Jarvis
Click to expand...

Jarvis,

Jack Dueck has several good articles on homebuilding. Of particular interest to this discussion, he has a column devoted to placards (pdf, click on "Read It"):

Oct 2006 - ?I WANT TO BUILD MY OWN AIRCRAFT? - PART II
Part Placards, Signs and Decals Jack Dueck, EAA HAC - Read It ​



This EAA Chapter 1410 has several other good articles as well:

http://www.eaahighriver.org/techref.htm
 
can we request a specific inspector from MD-RA?

i.e. someone who is known to have common sense and does not impose his own agenda.
 
MDRA Inpectors?

I see no reason not to be able to request a specific inspector. You just have to pay for his/her mileage.
regards
 
I'd like to add a few more snags.

Hi gang:

When I had my wings inspected they snagged me for not having a finger screen on the fuel pick ups. I had followed the plans and cut slots in a piece of aluminum tubing.

My inspector also insisted on a bonding wire running from the inboard tank rib to the fuel cap ring. This bonding wire must eventually be attached to the ships central ground.


And yes, he also insisted on a mechanical compass.

cheers, Terry
 
I'm very pleased with the inspector we have. He inspected our two Supercubs in 2006 and has now done the emp., fuselage and wings. Only final left to do. I like someone that really looks for problems, real problems. I find a fresh set of eyes, ( some one that is not there often) will pick up a problem where as those that are there often get use to a mistake as it's being made and do not detect it.
Ron

Brought our project to the paint shop early July with a promise of a them getting right at it. We contacted them in May and were told that they would start the end of June.
Makes me fell way better having our project sitting in their shop than my hangar. We had planned on finishing the wiring and making our panel this fall.Now we have hopes to get her back after the Christmas holidays.
 
Wayne Hadath said:
No, MDRA will not allow you to request an inspector. I do not know the reasoning.
Click to expand...
The reason is to avoid the possibility of favoritism or bribery or other conflicts-of-interest. If you don't know who your inspector will be, there's no way for you to curry favour with them ahead of time to ensure a satisfactory inspection result. Yes, they are supposed to be professional and conduct an arms-length inspection. In reality, most of the inspectors are known to the local community and in many cases are good friends with local builders as well. No matter how professional you are, it's hard to maintain that arms-length relationship when you're already friendly.
 
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