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GRT vs AFS EFIS - which one and why
- Thread starter JPalese
- Start date
I chose GRT because I had access to many of their units and the expertise that went with it. I use the FD capability when hand flying ILS approaches but not much else. It works great.
Either are superb units and it will come down to personal choice.
You will be very happy with either unit. Both have great customer service. I know others will ask why you aren't also considering Garmin's G3' but I don't know if it has FD capabilities.
Either are superb units and it will come down to personal choice.
You will be very happy with either unit. Both have great customer service. I know others will ask why you aren't also considering Garmin's G3' but I don't know if it has FD capabilities.
I've been flying the GRT units now since 2005, and consider them top shelf - reliable, with features that you will actually use, and a reasonably intuitive user interface.
I recently got a chance to fly the latest AFS units with Rob Hickman, their creator (We have three RV's in our stable right now - one with GRT, one with G3X, and one with Dynon Legacy....Rob wanted me to try his without building another plane!). I was really impressed with the AFS system, and put it right up there with the GRT and G3X.
How to choose? Well, too bad that we have to....I'd take a look at what fits best, and most importantly, what works the way YOU want it to work. Our brains are all wired a little differently, and some interfaces make better sense to certain individuals than others. Unfortunately, that means you really need to find a unit to play with - at a show, or installed in someone's airplane. You're going to spend a lot of money - take the time to travel if you must!
Paul
I recently got a chance to fly the latest AFS units with Rob Hickman, their creator (We have three RV's in our stable right now - one with GRT, one with G3X, and one with Dynon Legacy....Rob wanted me to try his without building another plane!). I was really impressed with the AFS system, and put it right up there with the GRT and G3X.
How to choose? Well, too bad that we have to....I'd take a look at what fits best, and most importantly, what works the way YOU want it to work. Our brains are all wired a little differently, and some interfaces make better sense to certain individuals than others. Unfortunately, that means you really need to find a unit to play with - at a show, or installed in someone's airplane. You're going to spend a lot of money - take the time to travel if you must!
Paul
Both are fine units. I went with a GRT HX/HS combo for a few small reasons.
1. With a separate box for engine instruments, which is on during start, I know right away if I have oil pressure, what rpm is, etc.
2. I wanted 2 display panels which would fit a -10 panel without cutting any support ribs. The GRTs were the right size.
If I had wanted just one display I might have chosen AFS. This was before the HXr was available.
1. With a separate box for engine instruments, which is on during start, I know right away if I have oil pressure, what rpm is, etc.
2. I wanted 2 display panels which would fit a -10 panel without cutting any support ribs. The GRTs were the right size.
If I had wanted just one display I might have chosen AFS. This was before the HXr was available.
flyvans.com
Well Known Member
as a happy AFS camper, here's some of the reasons we went with them (and you're quite right, they are very much up to par and it comes down to the finer details...):
- AFS has more "standard color coding"
- antialiased graphics
- also, while i have limited experience with both the g1000 and the grt, the speed tape with AFS is definitely the best/smoothing/filtering
- form factors available at the time fit better into our panel concept
- backup power/battery nicely integrated including all of the engine data.
- nice integration with their special edition trutrak ap
- willingness to work on a custom serial i/o protocol.
there's also a few things that could still be improved, like larger fonts for the small screens, new style flight mode annunciator for all models etc...
rgds,
bernie
- AFS has more "standard color coding"
- antialiased graphics
- also, while i have limited experience with both the g1000 and the grt, the speed tape with AFS is definitely the best/smoothing/filtering
- form factors available at the time fit better into our panel concept
- backup power/battery nicely integrated including all of the engine data.
- nice integration with their special edition trutrak ap
- willingness to work on a custom serial i/o protocol.
there's also a few things that could still be improved, like larger fonts for the small screens, new style flight mode annunciator for all models etc...
rgds,
bernie
rleffler
Well Known Member
As Paul stated, either company's products will do the job. I used to be a hard core GRT fan, but I ended up with AFS gear in my RV-10.
The 5X00 series has more features and a better menu structure than GRT HX. With more buttons, the menus are a little flatter. A nice advantage when single pilot IFR.
Like Paul said, go fly behind both, then make a decision. Both vendors should be able to tell you if there are any in your area.
bob
Wayne Gillispie
Well Known Member
I chose GRT because I had a few flights behind an earlier model with a friend, great customer service and they are just a few hours away if I need to see them. I have flown with another friend that had AFS- I really liked having geo-referenced sectionals on screen. I now have Ipad3 with Foreflight so not a big deal.
Just waiting for a more customer service oriented ADS-B manufacturer then it will be perfect with wx and traffic.
One thing I did not want is to have everything in one box/one brand, no matter how much neater it looks or ease of use. Keep this in mind, unless you like being stranded.
Just waiting for a more customer service oriented ADS-B manufacturer then it will be perfect with wx and traffic.
One thing I did not want is to have everything in one box/one brand, no matter how much neater it looks or ease of use. Keep this in mind, unless you like being stranded.
rleffler
Well Known Member
One of the nice features with the AFS/Navworx integration is that you get a data tag with the traffic icon that shows the N number. A great feature if you are trying to link up with a specific aircraft or finding a friend inbound at Oshkosh. I think they are the only one with this feature at the moment, but I suspect others will eventually catch up.
Since the OP is IFR, I agree with Wayne. I have three AFS screens in my RV-10. I also have a Gemini PFD that I use as a backup. Your back up needs to be frm a different vendor than you primary. This is to prevent a single software issue from taking everythingndown. I chose the Gemini because of its size and not having to install three steam gauges as backup.
Bob
AltonD
Well Known Member
I plugged my radios in for the first time and fired them up. After checking the wiring a dozen times and going through the setup routine more than a few times, I sent Rob Hickman an email. It was followed with his private cell number. I pull the plane out of the hangar so it could get a GPS signal and gave him a call on a Saturday night. He worked with me for an hour. We figured out I had a bad serial port in my brand new 430W.
Both are great products.
Customer service is the tie breaker. (not that GRT does not have great customer service, I have never used them).
Both are great products.
Customer service is the tie breaker. (not that GRT does not have great customer service, I have never used them).
George in Langley BC
Well Known Member
GRT for me
Have only experience with GRT, I have two different GRT Sport models in IFR 7A running different AHARS software versions for redundancy.
Really like GRT's free 58 day Nav database updates covering both US and Canada.
Anyone know if the GX3 and AFS will fly IFR approach and then transition to missed approach with a push of a button like a GRT system?
When GS or Vnav path is captured on approach a "MISSED" button is highlighted on GRT screen, just push MISSED button plus throttle & rudder and GRT is programmed to climb on RW heading at 500 FPM until reprogrammed to missed approach track, altitude.
Have only experience with GRT, I have two different GRT Sport models in IFR 7A running different AHARS software versions for redundancy.
Really like GRT's free 58 day Nav database updates covering both US and Canada.
Anyone know if the GX3 and AFS will fly IFR approach and then transition to missed approach with a push of a button like a GRT system?
When GS or Vnav path is captured on approach a "MISSED" button is highlighted on GRT screen, just push MISSED button plus throttle & rudder and GRT is programmed to climb on RW heading at 500 FPM until reprogrammed to missed approach track, altitude.
Maybe my Horizon is slightly different than the Sport. There are several selectable options available for what happens when you push "missed" and throttle up, but on mine the default is that if gps course guidance is available for the missed procedure (400w, etc) then the flight director or autopilot flies the procedure, including the hold. It's quite amazing to watch.
Note to OP: Are you considering an autopilot too?
You can add servos to the GRT for about $2K, but of course there's no extra redundancy. The GRT will drive a Trio Pro for about $3.5K, or a bit more for a TrueTrak. The AFS can drive its TT clone for about $3.5K.
(I have the Trio Pro with trim control, like it a lot).
More decisions!
You can add servos to the GRT for about $2K, but of course there's no extra redundancy. The GRT will drive a Trio Pro for about $3.5K, or a bit more for a TrueTrak. The AFS can drive its TT clone for about $3.5K.
(I have the Trio Pro with trim control, like it a lot).
More decisions!
George in Langley BC
Well Known Member
More GRT stuff
Re-read your post and I see you want a flight director display. The GRT flight director is great in flight, on approach, or anywhere the autopilot can be used.
One limitation of the GRT flight director is that it shows level on T/O and cannot be used to establish a positive climb attitude immediately after T/O. Other systems may be similar.
I do not consider this a limitation as the PFD screen is very easy to fly, in IFR I initially rotate to a fixed attitude and use the Flight Path Marker to confirm the climb gradient.
Of the three navigation presentations, needles, scales or flight director I prefer the needles as they are the largest of the three and still allow a good view of the flight path marker.
Re-read your post and I see you want a flight director display. The GRT flight director is great in flight, on approach, or anywhere the autopilot can be used.
One limitation of the GRT flight director is that it shows level on T/O and cannot be used to establish a positive climb attitude immediately after T/O. Other systems may be similar.
I do not consider this a limitation as the PFD screen is very easy to fly, in IFR I initially rotate to a fixed attitude and use the Flight Path Marker to confirm the climb gradient.
Of the three navigation presentations, needles, scales or flight director I prefer the needles as they are the largest of the three and still allow a good view of the flight path marker.
JPalese
Well Known Member
Why not Garmin?
The big reason I did not list Garmin is my understanding is they are single AHARS only so lack the redundancy of the GRT or AFS.
The big reason I did not list Garmin is my understanding is they are single AHARS only so lack the redundancy of the GRT or AFS.
rleffler
Well Known Member
One minor correction for the newbies. The AFS Pilot isn't a Trutrak clone, it is a Trutrak autopilot. The only difference is slightly different software to provide better integration with the EFIS, with the effect of having fewer button pushes due to the EFIS integration. The same is true for the Garmin version.
Also, for IFR, I would highly recommend an autopilot that can function independently from the EFIS. If the EFIS should fail, being able to engage the autopilot to keep the wings level gives you thinking time. Either the Trutrak or Trio with either the GRT or AFS EFIS can do this. I'm not sure about either the GRT or Dynon integrated servos. I would recommend talking with the vendors to completely understand their failure modes. To me, this is worth the price difference.
You can buy a lot of redundnancy for the single-AHRS with an autopilot capable of flying without the EFIS. In our G3X-equipped RV-3, we back it up with the GX Pilot A/P and a separate ADI/AS/ALT if both of the fancy things fail.
As many others have mentioned, you can't go wrong with either of these two as they make great product. I went with GRT and one of the factors for me was the dual AHAR/Mag which can cross check each other. I fly our 7A regularly in IFR, many times down to minimum as I feel very confident about our system.
Paul,
Those back ups will help if the AHAR goes completely kaput, but you might not know it right away if the information is wrong. With dual AHAR, there is a cross check and you will know if they don't agree. Of course I didn't need to tell you that
cheers
Paul,
Those back ups will help if the AHAR goes completely kaput, but you might not know it right away if the information is wrong. With dual AHAR, there is a cross check and you will know if they don't agree. Of course I didn't need to tell you that
cheers
Yes...but with the backup gauges I mentioned, there are three attitude sources - that should help eliminate a positively bad one. A subtle problem in a dual-attitude solution system will (most of the time) rely on the pilot to pick the good one - so you need a way to decide.
Three sources of attitude
One of the reasons I like the Trio is that it will display a symbolic turn coordinator, based on its internal sensors, even with the servos off, so that plus the GRT plus the D6 give three completely independent ways of finding wings level.
One of the reasons I like the Trio is that it will display a symbolic turn coordinator, based on its internal sensors, even with the servos off, so that plus the GRT plus the D6 give three completely independent ways of finding wings level.
It All Depends...
I spent hours researching both the GRT and AFS options for my -8A. Went with one of the first production AFS 3500 units, then upgraded to the 4500. I have a single screen, fly in the 3-view mode (EFIS, Map and Engine Monitor). I have back up altimeter, ASI, and VSI steam gauges. I also use and iPad with Foreflight for backup navigation and approaches. Weather is XM on a Garmin 496.
This setup provides all information needed - in fact, I think additional stuff would be considered clutter.
Have not had experience with GRT customer service, but it can't be better than how AFS responds. Their tech guys have superb knowledge and extreme patience in articulating their thoughts to electron-challenged callers.
260 hours on LuJaRo with no complaints.
I spent hours researching both the GRT and AFS options for my -8A. Went with one of the first production AFS 3500 units, then upgraded to the 4500. I have a single screen, fly in the 3-view mode (EFIS, Map and Engine Monitor). I have back up altimeter, ASI, and VSI steam gauges. I also use and iPad with Foreflight for backup navigation and approaches. Weather is XM on a Garmin 496.
This setup provides all information needed - in fact, I think additional stuff would be considered clutter.
Have not had experience with GRT customer service, but it can't be better than how AFS responds. Their tech guys have superb knowledge and extreme patience in articulating their thoughts to electron-challenged callers.
260 hours on LuJaRo with no complaints.
This is always a tough question, yet the most common. The answers are almost always the same, because it's like asking someone who's children are the prettiest - the answer is almost always "theirs" (the ones they have)!
Rarely will you find someone unhappy with their own choice in equipment. In reality, all of the mfgr's offer equipment that has it's own set of benefits, and some of them are wholly dependent on a variety of things. Things like YOUR mission, budget, timeline, space, perception, etc.. all will change what system is the right system for you. Fact is that most of the popular options currently available are all fine solutions.
Just my 2 cents as usual.
Cheers,
Stein
Rarely will you find someone unhappy with their own choice in equipment. In reality, all of the mfgr's offer equipment that has it's own set of benefits, and some of them are wholly dependent on a variety of things. Things like YOUR mission, budget, timeline, space, perception, etc.. all will change what system is the right system for you. Fact is that most of the popular options currently available are all fine solutions.
Just my 2 cents as usual.
Cheers,
Stein
N402RH
Well Known Member
You are about to spend a lot of money, I would suggest that you fly all the various EFIS systems and see what works best for you.
If you get out to Oregon (or go to the Copper State Fly-in) I would be more than happy to let you fly our RV-10. Our RV-10 has almost every option you could ever want and you could see firsthand how they all work together and how easy it is to use. All of our systems have AHRS cross-checking, even if you have only a map screen displayed. You can display any EFIS screen on any of the three screens including: VFR Sectionals, IFR Charts, Approach Plates, and Airport Diagrams (all geo referenced to show your aircraft and traffic).
Our RV-10 has the following equipment:
AF-5600EE
AF-5500EF (Dual AHRS with cross-checking)
AF-5600MFD
AF-Pilot Autopilot
Auto Trim
GTN650
GTX330 (TIS Traffic to all EFIS screens)
SL30 (NAV and Comm)
PS Engineering PM9000 (soon to be replaced with the new blind Audio Panel)
Navworx ADSB (Weather and Traffic)
Vertical Power VPX-Pro (Electronic Circuit Breakers)
XM Gen 3 (Weather, GPS, XM Music)
CO Guardian Pulse Oximeter and CO Detector (Interfaced to all EFIS screens)
Mountain High 02
Hartzell 3 Blade Composite Prop
You can also get training with our latest AF-5000 systems in Alex DeDominicis’ RV-10 in Texas.
Www.rvtraining.com
Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10 (700+ Hours)
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.
If you get out to Oregon (or go to the Copper State Fly-in) I would be more than happy to let you fly our RV-10. Our RV-10 has almost every option you could ever want and you could see firsthand how they all work together and how easy it is to use. All of our systems have AHRS cross-checking, even if you have only a map screen displayed. You can display any EFIS screen on any of the three screens including: VFR Sectionals, IFR Charts, Approach Plates, and Airport Diagrams (all geo referenced to show your aircraft and traffic).
Our RV-10 has the following equipment:
AF-5600EE
AF-5500EF (Dual AHRS with cross-checking)
AF-5600MFD
AF-Pilot Autopilot
Auto Trim
GTN650
GTX330 (TIS Traffic to all EFIS screens)
SL30 (NAV and Comm)
PS Engineering PM9000 (soon to be replaced with the new blind Audio Panel)
Navworx ADSB (Weather and Traffic)
Vertical Power VPX-Pro (Electronic Circuit Breakers)
XM Gen 3 (Weather, GPS, XM Music)
CO Guardian Pulse Oximeter and CO Detector (Interfaced to all EFIS screens)
Mountain High 02
Hartzell 3 Blade Composite Prop
You can also get training with our latest AF-5000 systems in Alex DeDominicis’ RV-10 in Texas.
Www.rvtraining.com
Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10 (700+ Hours)
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.
Any new thoughts?
Hello. About to have installed a gtn650. I'll upgrade my current trutrak to the t/t 385. I was going to have to install a garmin 106i Cdi for compatibility with 650. Question? In anyone's opinion as of now, which would be a better single screen ifr choice? After talking with Lucas at trutrak, I lean towards the afs. I want a single screen(space) as I will keep a few vital steam Gage's. I want my charts to be displayed on 1/2 screen while hsi/Cdi on the other 1/2 from the 650. Which model would accomplish this? I would take the $ needed for garmin Cdi and put forth to efis. Also unsure of any other expensive modules required? I would leave alone for now, my current eng instrument steam Gage's. Placing a pic here for better ideas. If I removed 4 Gage's I'd have room for about an 8x8 display. Any opinions? Thx dm.
Hello. About to have installed a gtn650. I'll upgrade my current trutrak to the t/t 385. I was going to have to install a garmin 106i Cdi for compatibility with 650. Question? In anyone's opinion as of now, which would be a better single screen ifr choice? After talking with Lucas at trutrak, I lean towards the afs. I want a single screen(space) as I will keep a few vital steam Gage's. I want my charts to be displayed on 1/2 screen while hsi/Cdi on the other 1/2 from the 650. Which model would accomplish this? I would take the $ needed for garmin Cdi and put forth to efis. Also unsure of any other expensive modules required? I would leave alone for now, my current eng instrument steam Gage's. Placing a pic here for better ideas. If I removed 4 Gage's I'd have room for about an 8x8 display. Any opinions? Thx dm.
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rleffler
Well Known Member
I think investing in any EFIS is money better spent than on Garmin 106 CDI. Denuding on which brad and model EFIS you get the savings from the 106 will go a fair amount of covering cost of the EFIS.
I am also a fan of AFS products. The only other module required would be an ARNIC interface module to connect the EFIS, 650, and AP. You also need to install an AHARS/ magnetometer, but that will be dictated by the brand of EFIS you select.
Also curious about the G3X
