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Boost pump switch location

alpinelakespilot2000

Well Known Member
There are a couple short, but pretty good threads about switch grouping already. I have a related question that is a little more specific. I'm currently in the final planning stages of my panel and think back to the very logical straight row of switches on the C182G I flew for a couple hundred hours. When I first transitioned to it, my instructor pointed out the natural flow I could follow. On start up or shut down, for example, I simply had to go from left to right or right to left, respectively. I like such logical simplicity.

However, the RV will be the first low-wing plane I have flown and it has something that seems to throw a wrench into this logical flow: the boost pump switch. I have a couple ideas that are a little contradictory, and have seen them in many different locations on other RVs. Is there any consensus about where it would belong? Thanks.
 
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Put it on the stick. Put as much as you can on the stick. Use latching relays and momentary switches to give you multiple control points (i.e., switch pump on from the panel or either stick).
 
Thinking about putting it next to the fuel selector

or at least near the throttle/engine controls .. with an annunciator (OK, idiot light) when the pump is on.

Regardless, its YOUR airplane. You could put it in the map box and get used to it. :p

John
 
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What I'm going to do.

I just had my panel cut by Affordable Panels and thought a lot about switch placement. I'm putting a group of 3 switches just to the left of the Avionics stack (will be just above the engine controls). These 3 from left to right will be - Starter/Fuel Pump/Flaps.

I'm actually going use a 3 position sw for the Fuel Pump (off-on- mom ). The momentary position is for a fuel line purge - to pump fuel back to one tank on hot days to avoid vapor lock.
 
Switches - Another Perspective

I'm knee deep in planning electrical and panel, so this discussion is timely. Here is my current thinking on switch location, subject to much change of course. All switches are Off / On unless otherwise noted.

Left Group - Bottom of Panel
a) Master: Off / Bat / Alt + Bat, or just Off / Alt + Bat
b) Alternator Breaker
c) E-Bus Alternate Feed
d) Backup Alternator: Off / On
e) Backup Alt Breaker
f) E-Mag: Off / On-Bat
g) P-Mag: Off / On / Bat
h) Parking Brake Push-Pull

Center Group - Just above Throttle/Prop/Mixture Knobs:
1) Elevator Trim: Mom. Down / Off / Mom. Up
2) Flaps: Mom. Down / Off / Mom. Up
3) Autopilot Engage / Disengage: Push Button Mom. On
4) Fuel Boost Pump
5) Starter Button: Push Button Mom. On

Right Group - Bottom of Panel
A) Panel Light(s): Perhaps Off/On dimmer knob?
B) Position Lights / Strobes: Off / Pos / Pos + Strobes
C) Taxi Lt: Off / Wig-Wag / On
D) Landing Lt: Off / Wig-Wag / On
E) Defrost/Defog Fan
F) Left Seater Heat
G) Right Seater Heat
H) Heater Push/Pull
I) Ground Power: Switch / Breaker

I'm shooting for max simplicity and a fully ambidextrous cockpit. The right seat and left seat experiences should be nearly identical. I intend to solo from the right most of the time.

I'm only putting PTT buttons on the sticks. Everything else that you typically need at hand I'm putting above the engine/prop knobs. Simpler and lighter wiring and still similar in user-friendliness. Each stick will be removable.

The ELT panel, plus any other avionics switches that are needed (Auto-Pilot feed from GPS or EFIS and/or an Annunciator for an IFR GPS), will all go higher up on the panel in logical places. Cockpit and / or reading lights, if I use them, will likely be switched at the lights themselves.

Input definitely welcome.

George
 
Good idea

Rick,
I like the MOM idea. Great for priming.

If you are going to put unrelated switches next to each other and one of them is likely to be grabbed at when the fan stops, then give thought to using a distinctive shaped switch. For example, the Emergency Power switch in the DC-9 (which you wanted to find when the cockpit went all black), was BIG and the ONLY rotary switch on the overhead panel. Selecting the Flaps up instead of the Fuel Pump on when the engine goes quiet, won't help much. And believe me, after doing a Sim Check every six months for 30 years I saw a lot of 'Finger trouble'. Mostly mine!
Pete.
 
Ergonomics

George,
A row of three or four switches is one thing. Many more and the ergonomics are going to be rather poor. Which won't matter much when the lights are on and there is nothing amiss. When things go wrong, in the dark, the ergonomics can make a big difference to the out come.

I flew the DC-9 sometime last century and the ergonomics were superb compared the the disaster in the equivalent Boeing cockpits. The DC-9 cockpit was very complex, compared with the Airbus A340 or B777 I flew later, but because of the attentioned paid to the cockpit layout it was a delight to operate and became known as "God's gift to pilots'. It was a gem.

Below are two pics of the DC-9 cockpit illustrating some of the brilliance.
The overhead panel shows the clarity gained be good grouping of switches.
The other shot shows the 'Throttle Quadrant' with more than 13 separate controls on it, BUT, each is distinctive in shape, colour ond operation.

Infinity stickgrips are one way to afford selecting the correct switch with your eyes closed.
I know spam cans have long rows of switches. You won't find then in a Boeing, Airbus, Douglas or a Fokker.

Pete.
dc9overheadpaneleh0.jpg

dc9throttlequadrantzr6.jpg
 
Near the throttle

alpinelakespilot2000 said:
There are a couple short, but pretty good threads about switch grouping already. I have a related question that is a little more specific. I'm currently in the final planning stages of my panel and think back to the very logical straight row of switches on the C182G I flew for a couple hundred hours. When I first transitioned to it, my instructor pointed out the natural flow I could follow. On start up or shut down, for example, I simply had to go from left to right or right to left, respectively. I like such logical simplicity.
Fuel Pump is a switch you use every takeoff, every landing, day or night, rain or shine. Put it in a convenient place that is near the throttles/mixture/prop.

Assume you have you left hand on stick and the right hand will manipulate the flap swithch and fuel boost pump, so put it to the center right of you seat. Make it stand alone slightly so you can flip is with out inadvertently hitting other switches, in other words not in the middle of 8 switches.

I group my switches as follows:

One time per flight important switches (ign L&R, master, avionics) far left in panel.

Light switches, landing L&R, wigwag, strobes, nav, panel, dimmer, grouped together front of pilot lower sub panel.

Flap & Fuel: center panel near throttle/mixture/prop to the center right of pilot low in the panel.​


I would not put it on the stick for many reasons. I know some guys go crazy with Fighter grips with 10 switches, but it will make you life easier if you just put the PTT in the stick. There are 100's of variations and there is no right or wrong, like on RV-4's and RV-8's with a left hand throttle quadrant you can put flap/fuel/ptt in the throttle grip. The problem with the stick is it's right there and you can accidentally hit it. Also the wiring is more and you will need a relay, which is more stuff to break. Trust me there is little savings in going through significant effort in wiring the stick with the fuel pump switch.


WHY CAN'T I REMEMBER TO TURN THE FUEL PUMP OFF?
You WILL forget to turn the fuel pump on at some point or turn it off some times after takeoff, especially if you are use to the no fuel pump Cessna's. All I can say is use a check list, I use:

CIGAR- before take off
C -controls (free and correct)
I- instruments
G- gas level/pressure/pump on
A-attitude (trim)
R-runup (check everything)


C-GUMPS- before landing
C- carb heat (on check and leave on or turn off as required)*
G- Gas: fullest tank/pump on
U- Undercarriage (does not apply but I do and think about it)
M- Mixture rich
P- Prop to low pitch high RPM
S- safety: carb heat, seat belts

*Carb heat- Unlike Cessna, Pipers and RV's don't use carb heat as a normal procedure for landing. Why? Well you would have to ask Cessna / Piper. Lycoming does not set the procedure, the airframe manufacture does. RV's being experimental amateur build are what ever you want. However with a Lycomings in general and especially in tight hot cowl, carb ice is not quite as critical on RV's as say a Continental's in a Cessna 182. However if conditions are ripe for induction ice and you notice MAP drop, in the case of Fixed pitch RPM drop, don't hesitate to use carb heat and leave it on. However the normal procedure is turn it on for a short period, leave it on and notice if there is a change (RPM drop followed by a rise as if ice was melted). If no sign of carb ice turn it off and land with it off.
 
Eyes Closed

PS.
You can fly this from either side with your eyes closed. .............Well, when your 5000'AGL.
Pete.
cockpitswitcheszn9.jpg
 
DC-9 Good ergonomics?

fodrv7 said:
George, I flew the DC-9 sometime last century and the ergonomics were superb compared the the disaster in the equivalent Boeing cockpits. The DC-9 cockpit was very complex, compared with the Airbus A340 or B777 I flew later, but because of the attention paid to the cockpit layout it was a delight to operate and became known as "God's gift to pilots'. It was a gem. Pete.
Hey Peter, this is the other George. Are you kidding the DC-9 was better than Boeing? What Boeing model? Have to admit never flew the DC9, but friends that did and now fly the Boeing don't share your opinion, they hated it. I fly the old B757 & 767 now and flew the B737-300/400/700 before. Do you really think the DC-9 had good or better ergonomics than Boeing? Really. I think you're waxing poetic of the good old days mate. You had to do all kind of weird things with the DC-9 didn't you. I heard of guys landing gear up because they forgot to turn the hydraulic back on? Following those T-tailed devil DC9's :D in the taxi line-up, the left elevator is flopping up and down violently in the wind, while the other elevator is flopping around in an opposite direction. Weird servo tab deal right. The B757/767 is a dream and the B737 was great as well but a little more manual like a DC9. I can't imagine it being better.

Just to be sure the DC-9 was better then the B777? :rolleyes:

Peter: I found a video of one of you DC-9 landings, I was at the airport that day. :rolleyes:

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/MD-80.mpeg'

MacD better than the Big-B, never! :D
 
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Boost Pump Switch Location

There are occasions when I want to activate or confirm the position of the boost pump and light switches without looking. An emergency (not yet) or more commonly on night touch and go landings. Boost pump is bottom row right of throttle followed by light switches arranged in order of brightness, landing, strobes, navigation, panel. etc.

Think about rolling down the runway after a night landing with landing light off, you re-position the flaps (up, 2 seconds) then you want to confirm boost pump and turn the ldg. lights on for T/O, can you find the switches without looking!!

---------------------------------------------------
alpinelakespilot2000 said:
There are a couple short, but pretty good threads about switch grouping already. I have a related question that is a little more specific. I'm currently in the final planning stages of my panel and think back to the very logical straight row of switches on the C182G I flew for a couple hundred hours. When I first transitioned to it, my instructor pointed out the natural flow I could follow. On start up or shut down, for example, I simply had to go from left to right or right to left, respectively. I like such logical simplicity.

However, the RV will be the first low-wing plane I have flown and it has something that seems to throw a wrench into this logical flow: the boost pump switch. I have a couple ideas that are a little contradictory, and have seen them in many different locations on other RVs. Is there any consensus about where it would belong? Thanks.
 
Ford v. GM

George,
I DID expect a response disagreeing with my impressions, but I made the post anyway, in an effort to encourage builders to plan their cockpits, as I know you would, to avoid any 'finger trouble' on a dark night IFR.
Regardless of one's opinion of the merits of the B737 and the DC-9, I still think that the photo I provided of switch grouping and the other of controls with different tactile feel maybe helpful to some in designing a better cockpit.

To answer [/I]your question, what Boeing model did I fly. I had the unique privilege of flying the DC?9, followed by Boeing, Airbus, Boeing, Airbus and Boeing. It is rare to get the privilege of flying three Boeings and three Airbuses alternatively.
B737, A320, B747-400, A330/340, B777.
Of course, it gave me an insight that was rare, but in the end it is still just my opinion.
And here it is. I spent 7 years on the -9 and then went on the Boeing B737-200. During the ground school the Instructor said, "If one more of you tell me how much better the -9 was, I'll thump him." We just could not believe how archaic the B737-200 was. It didn't even have a centralised annunciator. The warning lights were just scattered everywhere.
I then went to New Zealand for Sim and Endorsement with AIR NZ and we were amazed how crude it was. It did not even have MACH Hold. On Manual Reversion it felt like the Controls were welded, yet the -9 -as you pointed out- was manual ALL the time and a delight to fly. The B737 had such pronounce detents that it was impossible to squeeze on a touch of aileron without coming out of the detent. Enroute back to Aus., the DC-10 crew invited us to the cockpit and asked what we thought of the B737. We told them. They then offered that their first crews going onto their newly purchased B747s, from the DC-10, thought it a 20 year retrograde step????

I later flew the B747-400 and whilst it would lift full fuel, 400 pax out of LAX and fly 16 hrs to Hong Kong, the Air NZ boys were right. Magnificent aircraft ??.. with an archaic cockpit.

And yes, I did love the B777. First decent cockpit from Seattle. And what a bomb proof aircraft. I landed it in 50KTs all across in a Typhoon. But, you know George, it still doesn't have a Flight Warning Computer. If you get two failures, they come up in chronological order; they still aren't prioritised. So at the top could be, COFFEE MAKER FAIL followed by NWS FAIL. And if you loose two Hydraulic systems, it gives you two drills. You do one and then the other and some items are repeated???? Not a drill called HYD FAIL A & B like that other aircraft I flew. The other one you hate.

Anyway George, it is only my opinion gleaned from my experience, my prejudices and my view from Down Under. So please don?t yell at me mate, or DR might smack our wrists.
Pete.
PS. I already have the movie of the ?9 landing. But I prefer the Boeing crosswind landings in Brazil

QUIZ. How would an RV builder arrange the switches for four landing lights. Clue. Boeing?s solution below.
b737landinglgtswtg4.jpg
 
grjtucson said:
Center Group - Just above Throttle/Prop/Mixture Knobs:
1) Elevator Trim: Mom. Down / Off / Mom. Up
2) Flaps: Mom. Down / Off / Mom. Up
3) Autopilot Engage / Disengage: Push Button Mom. On
4) Fuel Boost Pump
5) Starter Button: Push Button Mom. On

Hi George,
Make sure you consider what each hand is doing during engine start.

I am putting my start switch towards the left side of the panel, near your mag switches, in order to avoid the contortion of reaching to the center quadrant with my left hand. (right hand already on throttle/mix)
 
fodrv7 said:
PS.
You can fly this from either side with your eyes closed. .............Well, when your 5000'AGL.
Pete.
cockpitswitcheszn9.jpg
Pete:

In the US, the aircraft pictured would never have gotten an airworthiness certificate without having the switch functions labeled for what they do and ON / OFF position.
 
<<They are.>> (switches labeled)

What about all those switches on the stick? Starter? Landing light? Why?

I'm with George. PTT only, nothing else on the grip. Too much chance of unintended operation.
 
DanH said:
<<They are.>> (switches labeled)

What about all those switches on the stick? Starter? Landing light? Why?

I'm with George. PTT only, nothing else on the grip. Too much chance of unintended operation.
I'm all about people building their experimentals the way they want to. But the odds/actual occurrences of unintended operation of stick operated controls is near zero. At least that's my experience after almost 1000 hrs in my Infinity grip equipped ride and several others with multifunction grips. Getting in and out, you learn to not bump or hit the grip (for fear of damaging the switches) much as you watch your knees to prevent damaging radio knobs and other panel switches. In flight, I'm not sure I've ever bumped a switch or button inadvertently. Also pretty sure I remember what all the switches do, too. ;)
 
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Put your left hand in, take your left hand out...

... do the hokey pokey and turn your plane about...

rzbill said:
Hi George,
Make sure you consider what each hand is doing during engine start.

I am putting my start switch towards the left side of the panel, near your mag switches, in order to avoid the contortion of reaching to the center quadrant with my left hand. (right hand already on throttle / mix)

Bill,

I plan to solo from the right, so right hand on stick, left hand on throttle/mix with the starter button (plus fuel pump, trim, and flaps) just above. When flown from left seat, left hand on stick, right hand on throttle/mix with push-to-start (plus fuel pump, trim, and flaps) just above.

Pete, good pics and thanks for the ideas. I suspect I'll be subgrouping my switches and choosing to do some stuff with either covers or sizes & shapes to accomplish the ergonomics a bit better. A lighting sub-group, etc.

Another note for consideration: I fly a Decathalon now, the starter button is in the middle of the panel, the throttle on the left side of the cabin, the mixture left side of the panel, and the fuel pump behind and above my head to the left. I cannot help but take a step up in ergonomics. :D

George J
 
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Good question.

DanH said:
What about all those switches on the stick? Starter? Landing light? Why?

It gives a great feeling of security to be able to hold the stick hard back whilst you engage the starter with the same hand and fiddle with the throttle and mixture with the other.
It is great to fly a circuit without having to take your hand off the stick for trim, flaps and fuel pump.

Pete.
 
I love my location

Yes, Oregon is great. But this post is about switch position.
When I am in the pattern or taking off my right hand is on the throttle and just above and slightly to the left is the flap switch. One inch to the left of that is the fuel pump on/off switch.
This works great. When your are taking off or landing one hand should be on the stick and the other on the throttle. I can reach all normal use switches and controls without moving my hands.

Kent
 
OR is great, especially EAST of the mountains where the sun shines!

kentb said:
Yes, Oregon is great. But this post is about switch position.
When I am in the pattern or taking off my right hand is on the throttle and just above and slightly to the left is the flap switch. One inch to the left of that is the fuel pump on/off switch.
This works great. When your are taking off or landing one hand should be on the stick and the other on the throttle. I can reach all normal use switches and controls without moving my hands.
Kent
I think the thread is starting to show two places specifically... either on the grip (which I prefer to avoid) or just to the left of the flap switch, with both switches being just above/left of the throttle. Thanks to all for the suggestions so far.

One further question... does 1" spacing, except when separating groups, seem about right from an ergonomics perspective? I think about 3/4-7/8" is the minimum depending on switch size.
 
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Low Pass said:
SNIP But the odds/actual occurrences of unintended operation of stick operated controls is near zero. SNIP

Perhaps with the Infinity grip this is true. I can say that with the MAC grip (Ray Allen), the slightest pressure from a map or chart will actuate the switches. My stick has the autopilot disconnect and autopilot control wheel steering buttons on the top, and many times I have disconnected the autopilot inadvertently. I really need to glue a couple o-rings around the switches to prevent this. I disabled the PTT switch which was on top of the copilot's stick because of this same problem. I often have a passenger helping with charts, etc..

To second what has already been said, put the boost pump switch in a location that makes sense for the physical movements that your hand(s) will be performing during those phases of flight where you will operate the switch. Don't just think about these phases, sit on cushions in the plane and go through the motions. The checklists and the physical locations should really match up well, such that there is no backtracking of the hands during checklist execution.
 
Here is how I did it.

alpinelakespilot2000 said:
I think the thread is starting to show two places specifically... either on the grip (which I prefer to avoid) or just to the left of the flap switch, with both switches being just above/left of the throttle. Thanks to all for the suggestions so far.

One further question... does 1" spacing, except when separating groups, seem about right from an ergonomics perspective? I think about 3/4-7/8" is the minimum depending on switch size.

Hello Steve,

You can see my panel (not quit finished) here:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=5255

I think that I used 1 inch spacing. The switch are as follow:
1. Battery, Alt field.
Atl field circuit braker.
2. Endurance buss, standby alt. (BC)
Standby alt field.
3. Fuel pump
4. Flap
space
5. Taxi, Taxi & Landing Lights
6. Strobe, Strobe & Nav lights
7. Wig/Wag (on/off)
8. Cabin light
Space
9. Pitot heat
10. A.P. power
11. Engine monitor power
12. EFIS Sport power
13. EFIS Lite power.

Kent
 
grjtucson said:
... do the hokey pokey and turn your plane about...



Bill,

I plan to solo from the right, so right hand on stick, left hand on throttle/mix with the starter button (plus fuel pump, trim, and flaps) just above. When flown from left seat, left hand on stick, right hand on throttle/mix with push-to-start (plus fuel pump, trim, and flaps) just above.

Pete, good pics and thanks for the ideas. I suspect I'll be subgrouping my switches and choosing to do some stuff with either covers or sizes & shapes to accomplish the ergonomics a bit better. A lighting sub-group, etc.

Another note for consideration: I fly a Decathalon now, the starter button is in the middle of the panel, the throttle on the left side of the cabin, the mixture left side of the panel, and the fuel pump behind and above my head to the left. I cannot help but take a step up in ergonomics. :D

George J

Actually, I kinda like the way the Decathalons/Citabrias are layed out (except for the switches above and behind the pilot....BLEH). On startup, you can hook you right arm around the stick to hold it back and run the throttle with your right hand. The left hand can then hit the starter and push in the mixture after start (assuming you start with mixture lean). I'm currently scratching my head trying to figure out how I'll hold the stick back, hit the starter and man the throttle at the same time in the Bearhawk.
 
I am putting the boost pump switch at the end of a row of thress switches ( Master/Avionics Master/Boost Pump) ala Cessna 206. This way it will be easy to find in an emergency.

Mike

RV4 ZK VCC
 
We placed ours in groups ... now after 300 hours of flying they are very easy to find in the dark of night. Note the SPARE switch is now used for the auto pilot.

PanelSwitches.JPG





Basicly ... all switches on during landing isn't a bad thing! ;)
 
Excellent

Allen & Chris,
Excellent grouping and labelling.
I really like the use of the rounded-rectangles around groups.
Pete.
 
As someone stated earlier, put it close to your throttle.

I set mine up so it is in this order:

Boost Pump
Carb heat
Throttle
Mixture
Flaps

That way I can turn on the pump and push everything forward at the same time and still toggle up the flaps with my index finger.

I haven't posted an up todate photo but the hole in this picture is for the carb heat.

 
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