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RV12 SLSA TRAINER

rkiefer2

Well Known Member
I’m in process of purchasing a 2014 RV12 SLSA to use for personal use and then to give flight training in.

Plane has 220 hours, AP, Dynon, built by Vans, Original owner, no damage, no liens, etc

Anything I should look out for?

If it has the SLSA airworthiness, then I should be good to go from a training prospective.....correct?

This seems like the perfect plane, almost seems to perfect.
 
Check the log book against the service bulletins on the Van’s website. Yes, you can give instruction in an SLSA.
 
If this is the reason for buying an "S"-LSA

You can receive and give flight training in an E-LSA. As a flight instructor you can charge for the flight training. But, you CANNOT charge for the airplane rental/use.
 
Plane has 220 hours, AP, Dynon, built by Vans, Original owner, no damage, no liens, etc

Are you sure Van's built the airplane. I thought Synergy built the S-LSA until recently. I could be wrong - no surprise there...
 
If this is the reason for buying an "S"-LSA

You can receive and give flight training in an E-LSA. As a flight instructor you can charge for the flight training. But, you CANNOT charge for the airplane rental/use.

Walt is correct, if your buying a SLSA because you think you cant give training lessons in a ELSA that is not correct.You can give lessons in a ELSA.
 
Unless things have changed instruction in an experimental for compensation can only be done if the person receiving the instruction owns the experimental aircraft. Otherwise you would need a letter of authorization from the FAA.
 
Unless things have changed instruction in an experimental for compensation can only be done if the person receiving the instruction owns the experimental aircraft. Otherwise you would need a letter of authorization from the FAA.

SLSA's are technically not experimental. They're used in flight schools for training and may be rental aircraft, etc. There are different maintenance requirements than experimental aircraft as well.
 
Turner,

True for S-LSA aircraft, but Seagull’s comment was about training in an E-LSA which is an experimental aircraft. As such to be legal the trainee must own the aircraft to make it legal to accept compensation for training. Some people have complied by selling shares in the aircraft or forming a flying club with each member being an owner.

Rich
 
Seriously? I can’t get a flight review in my own aircraft? Or is the key word ‘compensation’. Meaning if my cfi will do for free all is ok?
 
Seriously? I can’t get a flight review in my own aircraft? Or is the key word ‘compensation’. Meaning if my cfi will do for free all is ok?

Truly free is okay. No lunch paid for, no tit for tat. Otherwise no Flight Review if you’re compensating anyone.
 
Turner,

True for S-LSA aircraft, but Seagull’s comment was about training in an E-LSA which is an experimental aircraft. As such to be legal the trainee must own the aircraft to make it legal to accept compensation for training. Some people have complied by selling shares in the aircraft or forming a flying club with each member being an owner.

Rich

I thought instructors could obtain LODAs in order to train in their own Experimental aircraft.. NO? What's the point of LODA then?

14 CFR 91.319
(h) The FAA may issue deviation authority providing relief from the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section for the purpose of conducting flight training. The FAA will issue this deviation authority as a letter of deviation authority.
 
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I thought instructors could obtain LODAs in order to train in their own Experimental aircraft.. NO? What's the point of LODA then?

14 CFR 91.319
(h) The FAA may issue deviation authority providing relief from the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section for the purpose of conducting flight training. The FAA will issue this deviation authority as a letter of deviation authority.

All true - but to date, LODAs were issued for ‘transition training only’. The FAA says they’ll start issuing new ones on Monday, for Flight Reviews, instrument training (I guess), etc. Expect a mad rush as thousands apply.
 
All true - but to date, LODAs were issued for ‘transition training only’. The FAA says they’ll start issuing new ones on Monday, for Flight Reviews, instrument training (I guess), etc. Expect a mad rush as thousands apply.

Okay cool.. Didn't realize it was transition training only...

Yeah, I sent in my LODA request earlier.. lol...
 
RV SLSA Trainer

I do understand all the aspects of the certification of this airplane. But it clearly not a normal certified like a Cessna 152 or Piper 140. It has characteristics of an experimental aircraft.

So as crazy as this ruling is, it would not surprise me if the FAA provides an interpretation that would be negative to S-SLA's. Don't know for sure, but they are headed down this crazy road at full speed and we will just to have to wait and see who gets caught in the rule making wrecks.
 
I do understand all the aspects of the certification of this airplane. But it clearly not a normal certified like a Cessna 152 or Piper 140. It has characteristics of an experimental aircraft.

So as crazy as this ruling is, it would not surprise me if the FAA provides an interpretation that would be negative to S-SLA's. Don't know for sure, but they are headed down this crazy road at full speed and we will just to have to wait and see who gets caught in the rule making wrecks.

This new rule interpretation does not apply to SLSA's.
It applies only to experimentals that have an operating limitation prohibiting any operation that involves compensation or hire.

SLSA's are not experimentals and they do not have that operating limitation. In fact, if being maintained on a 100 hr inspection interval, they can be leased or rented by the hr.

E-LSA RV-12's are different because they are experimental and they do have the operating limitation that prohibits compensation or hire.
 
This new rule interpretation does not apply to SLSA's.
It applies only to experimentals that have an operating limitation prohibiting any operation that involves compensation or hire.

SLSA's are not experimentals and they do not have that operating limitation. In fact, if being maintained on a 100 hr inspection interval, they can be leased or rented by the hr.

E-LSA RV-12's are different because they are experimental and they do have the operating limitation that prohibits compensation or hire.

How will you ever get a bi annual flight review in a E-LSA or E-AB that you own, without compensating the individual that spends an hour on the ground with you and an hour in the air "refreshing" your memory on how to do emergency procedures, stall awareness, etc? What about the DPE if you own your own RV-12 that you are learning in? Nobody works for free.

My interpretation of "for Hire" is the individual pilot with skills that provides a service delivering you from point A to point B, or, another example would be commercial sight seeing tourist flights of the Grand Canyon. Or charter flights, or pilots for corporate jets.

The person that flys for fun, or as a hobby, or flies their immediate friends and family has to be able to learn how to fly. What they buy or rent to chose how to learn how to fly in, should be their choice, not the FAA. You want the government to tell you what you can or can't drive, or to take the bus instead, too?

Let's make all sports cars ( and a Van's does fly pretty sporty) reqs uire an exemption license to learn how to drive in, too, issued by your local DMV.

Seems ludicrous, to me, giving them such authority. Soon, you'll have to be an outlaw just to fly all Van's aircraft, when your biannual comes up, because you can't pay someone to teach you or test you, in your own plane, unless you and the instructor get an exemption.

Who is going to want to buy Van's airplane kits, with that kind of nonsense waiting for them at the end?
 
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How will you ever get a bi annual flight review in a E-LSA or E-AB that you own, without compensating the individual that spends an hour on the ground with you and an hour in the air "refreshing" your memory on how to do emergency procedures, stall awareness, etc? What about the DPE if you own your own RV-12 that you are learning in? Nobody works for free.

Use the process that has just been published to request a personal LODA

Have you read any of the press releases that have just hit the aviation news circuit?
 
Use the process that has just been published to request a personal LODA

Have you read any of the press releases that have just hit the aviation news circuit?

I've already sent the email with the information, last night. What happens if they deny me a LODA exemption? Feels like you are being accused of being guilty until proven innocent, and proven that you qualify for exempt. Just the idea of "deviating" is a negative connotation, from the standard, like diverting in the event of a forced unfavorable situation, to another airport.

With Covid-19D and the government, how long will it take them to respond? How is Covid affecting Van's ability to service their customers? We are now talking about a government agency, whose response time is even worse. Can you imagine working for the FAA and knowing what's going to be waiting for you in your email inbox come next Monday?

I've already had some keypunch operator at the FAA think that "Van" was my middle name filling out the registration for my plane. That took an additional couple of months to straighten out last year, so, I'm not impressed with their competence so far.

Piloting is a perishable skill, what do I do in the mean time, as a student?
This is a hobby for me, not for business or commerce, that's a big difference, there's no profit involved on my end getting from point A to point B. Compensation, for the purpose of training or further education of pilots to make them safer, or better pilots, should be a non issue, otherwise a lot less people are going to learn to fly as a hobby or for fun.
 
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Use the process that has just been published to request a personal LODA

Have you read any of the press releases that have just hit the aviation news circuit?

Yep - sent off my LODA app to the email address ([email protected] ). Took 5 minutes. Simply include name, address, email, Pilot Cert #, Aircraft Reg #, Make, Model, and Home Base. That email should get routed to local FSDO.

I have 81 days until my flight review is due. Net, for now, no big deal really. Now if it gets denied for some reason, then yes, that's a big deal.
 
Use the process that has just been published to request a personal LODA

Have you read any of the press releases that have just hit the aviation news circuit?

If I understand things, not only do I need a LODA for a flight review, but my CFI needs one as well? I just added a pilot friend to my insurance so he could get some transition training (plane is offered to him free). How in the heck do I handle that?

Is anyone willing to share a sample email sans personal information?

TIA.
 
Although it will be a pain if LODAs get denied, I don't see it as an earth shattering deal. It will just mean we will have to fly or drive to a location where there is a CFI with an SLSA that can do a Flight Review. Technically wouldn't even have to be a Van's aircraft. I ain't skird! Frustrated with stupid govt. decisions, but it will be okay..
 
If I understand things, not only do I need a LODA for a flight review, but my CFI needs one as well? I just added a pilot friend to my insurance so he could get some transition training (plane is offered to him free). How in the heck do I handle that?

Is anyone willing to share a sample email sans personal information?

TIA.

My email basically said, per the new FAA ruling, please consider this email as my request for a LODA for my airplane.. Then just list your required personal info and hit SEND.. Took less time than typing this reply to you..
 
RV12 SLSA Trainer

My concern is not the FAA denying them but how fast can they process them. The Notice says the e-mail application will be sent to the local FSDO for processing and issuing the LODA. I think they will be overloaded with paperwork.

And is the process automated? Does someone have to read each e-mail application and personally forward it to the appropriate FSDO? How much work must the local FSDO do before issuing the LODA?

I think this will be a hugh mess.
 
My concern is not the FAA denying them but how fast can they process them. The Notice says the e-mail application will be sent to the local FSDO for processing and issuing the LODA. I think they will be overloaded with paperwork.

And is the process automated? Does someone have to read each e-mail application and personally forward it to the appropriate FSDO? How much work must the local FSDO do before issuing the LODA?

I think this will be a hugh mess.

I don’t know all the answers to your questions for sure, but last night I screwed up my first email and left out my pilot certificate #, but then quickly sent a follow up email that included the number. This morning I had an email waiting from FAA requesting my pilot number, but then got a second email saying never mind after they read the second email I sent. The emails are definitely don’t going into a black hole..
 
Well, a BFR consists of 1 hour ground plus air work. I guess the CFI could charge for ground instruction and throw in the flying for free.😎

I shoulda been a lawyer!😈
 
Man, I have a bunch of questions that probably nobody can answer definitively just yet:

  1. Can you get a DPE to conduct a paid exam in an experimental anymore? Is a LODA required by both candidate and DPE?
  2. Is a CFI's LODA restricted to a named aircraft? or is to any aircraft of a particular category (experimental, primary, limited)?
  3. Can a student/owner (or CFI) get a LODA in order to receive (provide) dual-instructional flight in pursuit of a private, commercial, or instrument rating? Or will they only be available for transition training (LODAs were issued previously for transition training.. so I'm assuming they will be issued for more reasons beyond that now)
  4. Is a CFI really "operating" (this is apparently a key word in court rulings and the new FAA interpretation) the aircraft if the pilot/owner is already properly rated for that aircraft?

I've read some conflicting information.. And quite amusingly, I was scheduled to begin commercial training on Monday in my 12iS.
 
Back in the 90’s when the USSR fell apart and all the eastern bloc military hardware got into US private hands I got some dual in several different types. At the time the Perry Mason workarounds consisted of earnest money for a potential sale and buying one non-voting share of ownership to make you an “owner”. People were also ignoring the idiot rule to disable ejection seats.

One CFI told me quite candidly: unless something happens to put you on the FAA’s radar it’s not an issue, but if you make the front page you will be an example. When I had my Yak-52 I met a lot of warbirds guys. One was a TV / movie celebrity who owned a 1st generation jet trainer. He had a relatively minor landing incident. I can’t remember exactly what. The FSDO gave him a 30 day suspension and required remedial training from a CFI. When he challenged the FSDO guy citing similar incidents with less consequences, the FSDO guy told him point blank he was a high profile guy in a high profile airplane and would be an example to others.
 
Back in the 90’s when the USSR fell apart and all the eastern bloc military hardware got into US private hands I got some dual in several different types. At the time the Perry Mason workarounds consisted of earnest money for a potential sale and buying one non-voting share of ownership to make you an “owner”. People were also ignoring the idiot rule to disable ejection seats.

One CFI told me quite candidly: unless something happens to put you on the FAA’s radar it’s not an issue, but if you make the front page you will be an example. When I had my Yak-52 I met a lot of warbirds guys. One was a TV / movie celebrity who owned a 1st generation jet trainer. He had a relatively minor landing incident. I can’t remember exactly what. The FSDO gave him a 30 day suspension and required remedial training from a CFI. When he challenged the FSDO guy citing similar incidents with less consequences, the FSDO guy told him point blank he was a high profile guy in a high profile airplane and would be an example to others.

In other words, fly low and avoid the radar. Be the Gray Man.
 
Randy, paraphrasing is dangerous, but I would offer this sage advice: stay off the front page. I made a successful career out of it!😝
 
Randy, paraphrasing is dangerous, but I would offer this sage advice: stay off the front page. I made a successful career out of it!��

On the low and radar.... figuratively, not literally, unless you're trained for it, and in that pay grade in the military.

Having temperature inversions lately to 5000 AGL.... though, is tempting, but not much glide time insurance if you lost your motor. Tradeoffs...
 
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  1. Can you get a DPE to conduct a paid exam in an experimental anymore? Is a LODA required by both candidate and DPE?
  2. Is a CFI's LODA restricted to a named aircraft? or is to any aircraft of a particular category (experimental, primary, limited)?
  3. Can a student/owner (or CFI) get a LODA in order to receive (provide) dual-instructional flight in pursuit of a private, commercial, or instrument rating? Or will they only be available for transition training (LODAs were issued previously for transition training.. so I'm assuming they will be issued for more reasons beyond that now)
  4. Is a CFI really "operating" (this is apparently a key word in court rulings and the new FAA interpretation) the aircraft if the pilot/owner is already properly rated for that aircraft?

I've read some conflicting information.. And quite amusingly, I was scheduled to begin commercial training on Monday in my 12iS.

I received my LODA today. If anyone was following this and was concerned. it took only a couple days. Apparently Oklahoma accepts the email request and prepares a fill-in-the-blank form, then forwards it to your FSDO manager for signature. A copy of it is attached here if you're interested in the exact wording.

They apparently do not care what type of instruction I want to receive in my own experimental (add-on commercial/instrument, BFR, or initial pilot certificate)... So in effect, this whole thing is a non-issue.. just a rubber-stamp exercise.
 

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RV 12 Trainer

I will have to give credit to the FAA for one thing. I sent my LODA request in on Friday with the information that some of you posted and received a signed LODA back on Wednesday!
 
I used the FAA template on their website yesterday morning and my signed off LODA was in my Inbox today.

I am guessing the FAA was getting a lot of squeaky wheels to get things greased so quickly since the Warbirds fiasco in court.

My local FSDO serves a LOT of busy airports, so I'd say they are really on top of it, so far.
 
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LODA

Did you receive your actual LODA overnight or was it actually an auto reply stating they received your request?
 
Did you receive your actual LODA overnight or was it actually an auto reply stating they received your request?

They sent me they received my request email within 20 or 25 minutes of sending it in yesterday, and probably 24 25 hours later it was digitally signed by someone at my local FSDO on the bottom.
 
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