They rolled the trucks today...

RVer's

This morning I was planning on flying to meet up with another RVer who was in Phoenix for the weekend to pick up his RV. He is currently in KC-135 aircraft commander training and out of the state for a while. This was probably the last time I would get a chance to see him until his return in September. I helped him finish building his RV and we have become very good friends.

Our plan was to meet in the sky between Phoenix and Tucson. Everything was on schedule and my run up was uneventful. Our takeoff time was 6:15 and I hit it right on the nose. Did my normal takeoff and turned north on heading. I was climbing through 3500? and switched over to Departure. Less than a minute later I notice an unusual sound, sort of like a low frequency vibration. I scanned the engine instruments and everything looked good. I adjusted the rpm (constant speed) to see if that would change the ?pitch? of the sound. It didn?t have much effect. Then I started hearing a ?tapping/banging? sound, sort of sounded like heavy rain drops hitting the aft fuselage. But there wasn?t any rain on the canopy. The ?tapping/banging? was not uniform in period and continued for maybe another minute. I was only about 5 miles from the airport so I contacted Departure and requested an immediate return to the airport. I informed them that I had an unusual ?tapping/banging? sound coming for outside the fuselage. They cleared me in. It wasn?t busy at the airport due to the holiday. I contacted the tower and they cleared me to any runway I wanted.

When I was on short final I noticed all the fire trucks with flashing lights. They had rolled all the airport fire trucks waiting to assist if needed. My landing was uneventful and I taxied back to the hangar to see what was going on with my RV. As I stopped in front of my hangar one of the large airport fire trucks pulled up just to check up on me. I apologized for waking them up and told them what happened. I never declared an emergency but the airport fire department responded as they did. They were very professional.

Even though I thought the ?tapping/banging? sound was coming from somewhere outside the aft fuselage, I did a quick walk-around inspection. Nothing outside the aft fuselage was amiss. When I started looking at the pilot?s side of the fuselage I noticed the wing root rubber molding had loosened and 50% of the length (from the main spar to the rear spar) was free to flap in the wind. This is what caused the ?tapping/banging? I heard. I believe just as it started to wiggle free it also caused the low frequency vibration noise I heard before ?tapping/banging?. It only took 15 minutes to fix the problem but I missed an opportunity to meet with my RV buddy.

This was my first return the airport just after takeoff. In fact this was the first time I ever had an inflight situation where I had to consider aborting my flight. When I heard the low frequency vibration noise it caught my attention and concern, but I didn?t panic. When the ?tapping/banging? started I was concerned but I knew the engine was running fine and there was no control stick or rudder pedal vibration so I believed I still had an airworthy aircraft to fly. Not knowing what was wrong with the aircraft left my mind once I committed to returning to the airport. My focus then was to safely fly back to the airport and land. I could then focus on finding the cause later.

I always revisit my flights in my mind, especially when something out the ordinary occurs. After reflecting on today?s events and asking ?Did I handle the situation right??, ?What could I have done differently?? I have come to the conclusion I would not have changed anything. I made my decision and committed to return to the airport as soon as I took a moment to assess the situation; I communicated my situation to Approach/Departure clearly; I aviated and my landing was spot on.

So today they rolled the trucks and I get to fly another day. All in all, it was a learning experience.

You did the right thing and it is always better to ere on the side of caution. Good job!

We had the root end pilot side do the same thing when climbing out of Plymouth Michigan a couple of years ago. It sure gets your attention.

I carry duct tape along (it can be your best friend) which held it in position until we got home. It was glued on but obviously not well enough.

Larry

Good on you to let ATC know you had a problem. ATC is able to declare an emergency for you. You couldn't see it but you had many smart people working to help you.

I've declared an emergency several times in the past and have always been met by the nice, big shiny red trucks who will do almost anything to help me. AWESOME.

Fortunately in each case they never had to do anything but escort me on the ground to parking.

Three mantras I follow.

1. Don't be afraid to declare an emergency. Lots of smart people want to help you.
2. In an emergency my airplane is now an energy-absorbing device. This is why we have insurance.
3. Everyone goes home for dinner (so don't be stupid).

About 20-years ago, one of my friends had the same thing happen on the first flight of his RV-4. I used contact cement to glue my wing root rubber molding on before the first flight.

From both sides.

I drove these things for 35 years.



I also had problems with the rubber seal coming loose a few times, so I made up some fillets and solved the problem.

Great Outcome

Paul,

That was a great catch. I had a fuel pump vent line come loose by my landing gear fairing and do the same thing. Not as much noise but just enough to get your attention. I even felt the banging on my rudder pedals. I was able to quickly land (uncontrolled airport) and diagnosed the problem, and fixed it (temporarily) with duct tape.

I had one pop out on the bottom of a loop. It will get your attention for sure.

Paul: Same thing happened to me leaving Eloy a couple of months ago. Returned to Eloy, found and removed the partially loose rubber, flew back to Ryan, and reinstalled both sides with RTV.
Roger E.

Thank you.

Well done! BZ
Now, don't be a cheap pilot. A 'Thank You' in the form of lots of of donuts or a Pizza spread for the Gang from the Firehouse is a good gesture. They are good people and they'll go into a fire for you.

Paul, you did a good job and got her back on the ground safely - nice work.

Your comment about apologizing to the Firefighters about 'waking them up' is IMHO, a bad joke at best - please do a search and learn what 'on duty life' as a Professional Firefighter is like.

Firefighters have plenty to do - training, maintenance of apparatus and the fire station, studying, and fitness exercises to name a few. Slower assignments such as being a member of a Crash Rescue Crew at an airport require special knowledge and skills.

One wrongly placed hose line can kill people inside of a house of airplane. Placed correctly, that hose line can save lives.

I'll bet that those who responded to your incident were happy to be there and ready to help in any way possible. And, I'll bet that they had a genuine interest in seeing your RV. It's always good to get out of the station and to apply the knowledge and skills that we have learned - to be helpful.

I never minded being 'waked up' at night and there were many shifts here in Los Angeles City where I worked, when my crews and I never got to sleep during the 24 hr shift due to the high call load. I slept away most of the next day at home so that I would be able to perform well the ensuing day back in the Fire Station. Even as a member of the Crash Crew at KLAX, we seldom slept thru the night.

Professional Firefighters don't sleep during the day. If your local firefighters or Crash Crew Members 'sleep during the day' then you might want to be proactive in upgrading your local Fire Department - you probably have a fire department 'in name only'.

Please avail yourself of the opportunity to learn what Professional Firefighters do for you not only at the airport but also at your local Fire Station and in the community. Visit the Airport Fire Station and talk to the firefighters there. You will find them to be of service and happy to talk to you about firefighting, fire prevention, and fire safety, airplanes, building houses, farming, metal or wood work, cars or trucks, family, football, just about anything - they will be happy to see you.

Enough from me - no flame suit on - I'm a man.

E. D. Eliot said:

Paul, you did a good job and got her back on the ground safely - nice work.

Your comment about apologizing to the Firefighters about 'waking them up' is IMHO, a bad joke at best - please do a search and learn what 'on duty life' as a Professional Firefighter is like.

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I don't think it was a joke about firefighters sleeping all day--check his stated takeoff time. Back when I was volunteering, our wake-up time was 630, assuming we hadn't gotten a call earlier (and most guys took every last minute of it). If they work a similar schedule, they might well have been woken up a few minutes early.

We have a few mottos in the fire service. 'We may doze, but we never close' is one.

My favourite however was ' We eat until we're tired, then sleep until we're hungry'

The fact is though, in all of my career I've never seen anyone ignore an alarm any time day or night. There were days we'll never forget both good and bad. All n all a pretty good bunch of people, who will if required, do whatever they can to help you out of a jam.

I was sincere

To all the firefighters or former firefighters out there on the forum I want to let you know that my comment said to the airport firefighter who approached me after following me to my hangar was not intended as a joke, I was sincere.

It was very early in the morning just past 6:15, July 4th. The incident was minor and I really was sorry they rolled out the trucks. Maybe even a bit embarrassed. As the female firefighter approached me I apologized for waking them up and her reply was ?I had just finished brushing my teeth, no problem that is what we are here for?. We talked a bit longer and I thanked her for the help.

Being an airport firefighter must be a challenging job in many ways. It surely isn?t your typical firefighting job. Tucson International is a busy airport with commercial, military and GA airplanes. Even though working out of this controlled airport has its drawbacks there are benefits as well. Having professionals in the Tower/Ground/Approach/Departure keeping me and others out of harm?s way and having emergency services on the field in the event you need them outweigh the drawbacks.

Fortunately I didn?t need the firefighters that day and hopefully never will.

best procedure????

before we get all fire fightery, I am curious if some of the test pilots are out there.
If you have an unknown condition like this, are there a couple of 'verify, identify, ' type steps or a checklist ( mental) that we should go thru?

the first thing that came to mind, was that changing the aircraft configuration might be a bad thing. ( if it's a flutter or other aerodynamic issue.)
Of course you have to slow down to land, but perhaps a 'no flap' landing, with minimal pitch change?

appreciate anything I can learn from the more experienced folks out there!

Generalized Troubleshooting

flyboy1963 said:

before we get all fire fightery, I am curious if some of the test pilots are out there.
If you have an unknown condition like this, are there a couple of 'verify, identify, ' type steps or a checklist ( mental) that we should go thru?

the first thing that came to mind, was that changing the aircraft configuration might be a bad thing. ( if it's a flutter or other aerodynamic issue.)
Of course you have to slow down to land, but perhaps a 'no flap' landing, with minimal pitch change?

appreciate anything I can learn from the more experienced folks out there!

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First, I think that the OP did a great job! Second, no two situations are going to be the same - but we can make a few general statements about the thought process. You should be able to go through the initial thoughts in a nanosecond or two:

1) Fly the plane

2) Is the plane still flying? Good - fly the plane.
2a) If you are close to redline or stall, get the airplane away from redline or stall. Listen to the airframe - it will tell you what it needs. There is a big difference between a noise and airframe shaking and shuddering.

3) Don't like being in the air? Head to an airport.

4) Any suspicion that the engine might be quitting on you? If so - don't take off power until you have to. Unless, of course, something is making a lot of racket, and all your instincts say to slow down.

5) Fly the plane.

6) Make a landing as close to routine as you can. More runway departures happen because people land out of their normal speed or steering range than if they just flew a nice, close to nominal approach.

Remember - brilliant problem analysis is great once you are on the ground. What you need in the air is a plan to get back on the ground, and execution of that plan. Engineers - figure out what happened once all of the parts stop moving relative to the earth.

Don't rush - rushing will lead to doing the wrong thing. Move deliberately to get in a safer place - like on the ground.

Oh....and don't forget to fly the plane.

Your Mileage May Vary - this is what I learned in about 20,000 hours of aerospace flight operations training and execution over the years. Once in a while, you'll be truly surprised, but in most cases, these techniques will see you through.

Paul

That all sounded very "fire fightery" Mr Dye, but in a very "Airplaney" sense.

It surprises me how much the thought process is transferable from one to the other. Evaluate what's going on and work toward a favourable outcome.

A little training doesn't hurt either.

anyone remember the article in a flying magazine from 40 yrs. ago? pilot took off and quickly returned barely under control. had draped his hanging suit bag over the hor stab. and forgot it! makes me check the gas caps an extra time.

Trouble?

Hardly. You like flying? I assume your answer would be yes. Firefighters like "rolling." Especially airport firefighters. They get to go so infrequently, I guarantee everyone of them - consciously or subconsciously - appreciated your issue. Anything less, and they need to get out of the firefighting business.

Low Pass said:

~I guarantee everyone of them - consciously or subconsciously - appreciated your issue.

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Whenever I encounter airport firefighters I always ask if they are familiar with the type of aircraft I'm operating and if not, would they like a tour. Giving them a quick fam on exits, crew & passenger extraction, fuel shutoffs, electrical power and emergency shutdown only takes a few minutes. They are always motivated to learn more about a Chinook or a Sherpa since they might not see them very often, the same probably applies to our RV's.

Low Pass said:

Hardly. You like flying? I assume your answer would be yes. Firefighters like "rolling." Especially airport firefighters. They get to go so infrequently, I guarantee everyone of them - consciously or subconsciously - appreciated your issue. Anything less, and they need to get out of the firefighting business.

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We run usually between 5 and 7 hundred calls a year. That's everything from smouldering cigarette butts to a 747 crash. And we're not a huge airport.

I'm at the end of my career and had reached the point a long time ago where the adrenaline doesn't do much for me anymore. If we get a quiet spell, it means no one is getting hurt or losing property and that's fine with me. When we do go on a call similar to the OPs, we are always happy to see everyone is safe and the airplane can be used again. We usually go up and say, 'we're glad you made it in safely.'

We also do most anything the structural depts do, as airports are a lot like cities with buildings, vehicles and lots of people. We have two structural pumpers to accommodate that need.

And, every now and then someone will drop something off to the fire house just to say thanks and it's always appreciated. Stuff with lots of sugar and calories is best.

Just some food for thought from a fire service perspective, when in doubt ask for the equipment and ask as early as possible.

Failing to call for the equipment as soon as possible could have very negative effects on the outcome of an inflight emergency.

I live in the north Houston area and not making the early call for equipment at most of our fields may mean they are not even on the field when you arrive. Let’s take a look at a few north Houston area airports and the time it takes to get equipment to the runway.

KIAH: Houston Intercontinental is an ARFF index E airfield with 3 full staffed stations on field, but it still takes time to get the apparatus responding. Based on the time of the OP flight it would be coming up on shift change time for those stations so some of the crews that are coming to the end of their shift would be awake already and the new crews would be starting to filter in. As soon as the pilot of the emergency aircraft request the equipment or the controller decides the equipment should roll one of the tower controllers presses the alert button in the tower and picks up the crash phone, crews start moving toward the apparatus, depending on how close they are to the apparatus bay this can be from 0 seconds to 40 seconds. Those firefighters get to the apparatus and start putting on their turnout gear. A good experience firefighter can have all of his or her turnout gear on in about 60 seconds then climb on the truck. While most of the crews are getting their gear on the engineers are starting the apparatus and finding out what runway the need to respond to. Depending on what runway the aircraft is landing on the truck still have between 1/3 of a mile and almost 2 miles to go to get to the standby locations in a pre-alert, or between 2/10 of a mile and 2 miles depending on where the aircraft is when responding to a crash that has already happened. The primary response units weigh between 55,000 and 125,000 pounds and while quick for a truck; they are no sports car 0 to 50mph in ~35 seconds, top speed of ~70mph. Picking a middle distance of say 3/4 of a mile the apparatus will take just over 1 minute to drive to the location of a downed aircraft in the case of being alerted after the crash.

If you can get the equipment out before they will be waiting near the runway and if something happens they can get to the aircraft in seconds. If nothing happens a unit will follow you in to parking check on you and they go back to whatever they were doing before the alarm went off just like in the OP’s case.
On the other hand if they are not waiting and you do crash it would probably be about 2 to 2.5 minutes before the ARFF units arrive on scene.


KCXO: Lone Star Executive Airport in Conroe has no ARFF station at this time, in the event of an alert or crash the Conroe Fire Department is dispatched to the airport. Assuming that closest engine is not already running another call (fire, car wreck, medical call) they are almost 2 miles driving distance from the airport perimeter. If the closest engine is busy the next closest units are about 5 miles away. Additionally as these are structural firefighting engines and not ARFF crash units they need time to get into pump gear and pull a hose line once they reach the scene. Another thing to consider is that dispatch is not as fast, the tower has a direct phone number for the fire dispatch center and would call them, after they answer the phone the dispatch center must get the computer dispatch system to generate the alert tones for the appropriate fire station and read a dispatch message over the radio.

From tower making the phone call to apparatus on scene could be as short as 3 minutes up to as long as 8 minutes and it will take them another 30 to 45 seconds to start applying foam if needed.



KDWH: David Wayne Hooks Airport in the Spring / Tomball area has no ARFF station, in the event of an alert or crash the Klein Volunteer Fire Department is dispatched to the airport. KVFD has 7 stations, 4 of those stations have paid firefighters in them from 0600 to 1800 Monday through Friday. All 7 stations at night and on the weekends and 3 stations 24/7 have volunteer firefighter that respond from home or work to the station to get the apparatus before they can respond to the scene. As with Lone Star the Hooks tower has a direct dial to the fire dispatch center.

During the work week daytime hours there are 2 stations with paid staff, one is 1 mile away and the second is 2 miles away and 1 station that relies on volunteers 1.5 miles from the airport so response time from the station with paid staff should be in the 3 to 5 minute range. At night and anytime on the weekend that will go up by 1 to 2 minutes as the firefighters have to get to the station from their home or work and the apparatus will not respond until at least 3 firefighters arrive at the station.

When I got promoted to being an officer in the fire service many years ago the fire chief I worked for at the time told me “When in doubt bang ’em out”. What he was telling me was if I even though I might need more resource call for them as you can always send them home if you don’t need them. If you don’t call for them and do need them it is impossible to make them get to the scene faster.

The bottom line is call for the equipment and call for it as soon as possible. We would much rather come out and watch the plane land safely then get the other call.

The bottom line is call for the equipment and call for it as soon as possible. We would much rather come out and watch the plane land safely then get the other call.

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Great advice. Thanks for taking the time to write it up.

Out of curiosity; do you know of any airport fire/rescue or municipalities that bill for an emergency call-out? This would never have any bearing on my decision to avoid burning to death, but having worked for a private EMS contractor for a city?we cost money to roll?a lot (and someone has to pay).

Thanks again.

Where I am. As soon as the tower is notified that an aircraft has a problem of any kind, be it a mechanical or medical issue on board, we are notified immediately. We have predetermined standby positions and the ARFF vehicles respond to those positions and wait for the aircraft to land. At times we've known up to an hour in advance for incoming emergencies.

In the event of a crash, the tower sounds the crash alarm and the response is immediate. We are mandated to initiate intervention within three minutes anywhere on the airport from the time of the alarm. A lot happens very fast when this occurs. The airport emergency response plan is also activated at that time, which puts the mutual aid protocol into effect, the emergency operation centre is also activated.

We are regulated to make sure the system works as advertised. We exercise the emergency plan on a regular basis and there is a training syllabus we follow. Adhearance to the regulations is monitored by the appropriate federal agency.

This whole system is dependant on getting a call in the first place. The sooner you let us know you have a problem the better it is. And as has been said, that's what we're there for and we've never said no to any of our customers.

Icarus said:

Out of curiosity; do you know of any airport fire/rescue or municipalities that bill for an emergency call-out? This would never have any bearing on my decision to avoid burning to death, but having worked for a private EMS contractor for a city?we cost money to roll?a lot (and someone has to pay).

Thanks again.

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I am not aware of any department that is responsible for airport response that ever bills for a callout to standby, for other types of calls the answer varies based on the type of call we are responding to.

The first thing for most departments in this area is someone is getting a bill if any of our equipment is broken or damaged as a result of the call and they will pursue collection in those cases.

Fire departments in this area are all over the map when it comes to charging for fire calls, they fall into 3 broad groups:

• Departments that do not bill for fire calls
• Departments that do not bill for residential fire calls, but do bill for commercial fire calls.
• Departments that bill the insurance company for all fire calls

All the departments I work and interface with will not really pursue collecting the bill against the property owner if the insurance company will not pay (most insurance companies around here will pay a nominal service fee).

On vehicle extrication (Jaws of Life) calls the departments mostly bill the insurance of those at fault and will not pursue collections against the individuals.

On rescue calls (rescue from water, high areas, collapse spaces) we only typically bill the responsible party for items that are single use items. For example in a rescue of a person from a collapsed trench we would bill whoever dug the trench for the wood cut and used to stabilize the trench so we could rescue the person.

On medical calls we work closely with the ambulance companies and get replacement supplies from the ambulance for anything we used on that call so they end up billing the patient for those supplies.

The one call type that every department in this area will bill for is HazMat (Hazardous Materials) calls. The bills for those calls can get real big in a hurry. We bill those by the hour for the apparatus and the firefighters plus our specialized equipment. We also bill for any of our equipment that was used in the contaminated area that could possible absorb the chemicals that would include and fire hose, tarps and our structural turnout gear if it was exposed to the contaminated area.

On an aircraft incident that is anything more than a standby, the call would be handled as a fire and extrication call so, again depending on the department, if anything was billed it would be billed to the insurance.

wing root seal flapping

Same thing happened to me in a PA-28-140 years ago. It was all the more dramatic sounding because I had removed the original fiberboard back wall of the cabin anticitipating receipt of the new molded back wall with integral hat shelf. So the long open cone of the fuselage behind me acted like a big, empty tin can. I was flying solo over New Jersey somewhere. The flapping started faintly and then grew into a very loud drumming within a very few minutes. VERY SCARY, THOUGHT THE BIRD WAS COMING APART UNDERNEATH ME. By coincidence there was a small rural air strip below me. I dropped out of the sky like a rock, greased the landing and rolled to a stop. Not a soul around anywhere. I climbed out, looked over the bird but could not find anything amiss. Then I walked about 50 feet away (to relieve myself!) and then squatted down to eyeball the airplane from there, and then I saw it. About half the underside length of the seal was hanging down. Instant relief, knowing what it was. Spent three minutes pushing it back into place, and took off - no further problems.
Flying has been described by some as hours of boredom punctuated very occassionally by a moment of stark terror.....&=) I would dispute the boredom, but I can concur with the occasional feeling of terror.