ADSB worked just like it should

We had an interesting experience yesterday on a trip from the Birmingham area south to our home along the Gulf Coast of Alabama. We were about halfway when the ifly 720 alerted me to traffic 1 o'clock 12 miles +200 feet relative to us. We were cruising at 4500 feet, the proper VFR altitude for our heading. Thinking he was on his way up or down, we observed him for a minute. With the target now only 6 miles out and the +200 ft relative altitude not changing it was time to disengage the autopilot and descend. I dropped 400 feet as the Aircraft passed overhead right where the Navworx ADSB said it would be. Climbing back to 4500 feet and with "George" again flying, we were on our merry way.

My Thoughts:
1. He was at the wrong altitude... didn't matter, we'd all be just as dead so I was
happy to get out of the way.
2. I estimated our closer rate at 380 mph.... 6.3 miles a minute.... and once he's
close enough to maybe notice (small nearly head on profile), say 2 miles... we
would have only 19 seconds before coming together. I wonder with the very
little relative motion, (coming from my 1 o'clock), if we'd seen him before
getting uncomfortably close.
3. The Navworx ADSB possibly kept us from being on the 10 pm news. It
turned a potentially dangerous situation into a non-event.
4. I usually use flight following which I wasn't this flight. That would have
added another layer of safety.
5. LOVE this ADSB stuff and encourage others to "Get 'er done!"

Here we are just before our takeoff from the Bessemer Airport.

They might not have been on the wrong altitude, pressure altitude tolerances for both you and them and the various electronic devices involved might have (negatively) added up to such a point that you saw IFR traffic at 5k'. That is why the Mark 1 Mod 1 eyeballs are still so important when VMC. I have had more than one instance of 200' vertical separation for traffic noted by ATC as 500' above or below me.

But I agree, information from ADS-B In is a game changer.

Ifly 720 to the navworx's

Paul first off glad everything went well on your trip. I have been a long time Ifly user and have been looking at the Navworx's unit. Have you had any issues? I heard some of the early units where hit and miss. If the issues are all resolved I'd love to get mine ordred and installed soon.

Thanks

navworx issues

Blane,
I have the naveworx 600 exp and can report I've had zero issues. It's been installed in the plane 4-5 months. It's interesting that when new technology comes along such as traffic and weather in the cockpit how quickly we get used to it. Now I can't imagine flying without this stuff! Back when my son was in the navy stationed in Norfolk, Virginia I took a trip in my cessna 152 from the Alabama Gulf Coast to Norfolk and back to see him. I had NOTHING in the plane except a garmin gps 3 pilot... screen size about equal to a box of matches! Almost seems fool hardy to me now.

Get your Navworx and enjoy the increased feeling of safety you'll enjoy! Like catmandu mentioned, we have to keep the Mark 1 Mod 1 eyeballs in the equation!

Fly Safe!

Paul 5r4 said:

We were cruising at 4500 feet, the proper VFR altitude for our heading.

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To nit-pick, FAR 91.159 says to choose your altitude based on magnetic course, e.g., ground track, not heading. Yours may have been close to 179? Or the traffic's 359? At any rate, when close to north or south extra caution is advised due to this type of confusion or uncertainty.

Heading/course

Bob,
Great point. I was flying about a 196 heading and not sure what the course was although I know I was well past the 180 deg mark. I totally agree with you. I've always worried about flying nearly due north or south for the exact reasons you mentioned. Extra vigilance is in order!

Navworx and iFly740

Blaine, I have my NavworxEXP feeding two iFly 740s and an iPad running iFly software. Works really well --- the traffic and weather are outstanding and have been extremely useful on X-ctrys and local flights.

Ron

Thanks for the report Paul.

I will install it as soon as NavWorx ships what I ordered about 2 months ago. There is a hang up with vendor on parts. Will be feeding info to GRT Sport EFIS. Hope it works as well as yours. I have not been seeing much traffic and it is time to find out if the sky is really empty.

ifly and navworx

Ditto to Ronsims post. My navworx is feeding my ifly 720 as well my nexus tablet with the same ifly software. Works beautifully.

Does iFly show ID number from ADS-B out a/c

Paul 5r4 said:

Blane,
I have the naveworx 600 exp and can report I've had zero issues. It's been installed in the plane 4-5 months. It's interesting that when new technology comes along such as traffic and weather in the cockpit how quickly we get used to it. Now I can't imagine flying without this stuff! Back when my son was in the navy stationed in Norfolk, Virginia I took a trip in my cessna 152 from the Alabama Gulf Coast to Norfolk and back to see him. I had NOTHING in the plane except a garmin gps 3 pilot... screen size about equal to a box of matches! Almost seems fool hardy to me now.

Get your Navworx and enjoy the increased feeling of safety you'll enjoy! Like catmandu mentioned, we have to keep the Mark 1 Mod 1 eyeballs in the equation!

Fly Safe!

Click to expand...

Paul,

I also installed Navworx in May 2016, reading the ADS-B In on an iPad.

Just wondered whether your iFly shows the registration number for those aircraft equipped with Out equipment. I'm using Seattle Avionics that doesn't provide that information. What software are you using?

N numbers

Jaknjoan,

I'm using the ifly software from adventure pilot. No N numbers show up for me. I've wondered because I thought they would. Truthfully, I'm happy they aren't there. It's information I don't need and I feel would just clutter up the screen. The presentation of a small triangle with the stinger in front and the little + or - to show their altitude provides at a glance all I need to know.

Paul - -

I emailed back and forth with IFly about that issue. N-Numbers do show up if you are on a 3 mile ring or less on the screen ( speaking of my IPad ). They answered me today that the next update will include an option to have them show up on greater than 3 mile ring around plane. I hope it does work that way, and you can turn it on if you want or off.

Also I asked about the banner coming up saying I need to update, when I have already. They said that will be improved also.

Navworxs

Thanks Guys for the updated info. I had long talks with Navworx's & Ifly this year @ OSH and was still on the fence. Think it may be time to pull the trigger. I noticed that if you don't install a tso'd unit we are not able to apply for the faa $500 rebate program. Bummer

Jaknjoan,

Quick update regarding N numbers showing/not showing. I've discovered that if you zoom in they begin to show up on some of the targets being painted. Also you can touch the screen, select traffic and it will give you all the info it has on that flight.

If everyone had ADS-B-Out, we would not need the FAA or their ground stations that they will not leave turned on to provide traffic to everyone. I have ADS-B-IN only, no out yet, but plan to get it. My wife and I went flying recently. The PingBuddy ADS-B dual band receiver sent traffic info to my iFly 740 GPS. The screen showed several airplanes near us but we could not see them out the window. I was starting to think that maybe that displayed traffic was not real. So I turned on an intercept course for a plane that was 800 feet above us. The traffic was 12:00 and closing fast. My wife and I scanned the horizon but could not see it until it was about a half mile away. Admittedly, I was looking straight ahead, not up, because traffic above is not a collision hazard, unless descending, and the display indicated level flight. The other plane quickly passed a few hundred feet to our left and above us. The GPS display was real after all. There was no collision hazard. But if there had been, there would not have been enough time to alter course or altitude. Even if both planes had time to alter course, how do you know that they would not both go in the same direction and collide anyway? Have you ever met another pedestrian and you both altered course in the same direction?
A few minutes later, another airplane took off from a local airport and was heading towards us at 9:00. I did not alter course because the plane was going to pass behind us. This traffic did not show up on the iFly 740. My wife asked why not. I explained that because neither the other plane nor our plane is equipped with ADS-B-Out, we are missing lots of traffic. Only traffic that has ADS-B-Out is displayed on the screen. My wife wanted to know how much this new equipment would cost and I said $3000. I will purchase it soon. It is impossible to see traffic out the window that is more than a mile away.

Does the IFLY offer spoken audio alerts of traffic through the audio panel or is it only on the display?

Mich48041 said:

Even if both planes had time to alter course, how do you know that they would not both go in the same direction and collide anyway?

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http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part91-113-FAR.shtml

Mich48041 said:

It is impossible to see traffic out the window that is more than a mile away.

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I've seen this stated in another thread and still disagree.

I would love to be proven wrong. Conduct an experiment. Get a friend to fly his or her plane on a collision course with you in your plane. When either of you first spots the other, start a stopwatch and time how many seconds between first sighting and potential collision. You both fly at the same altitude but on opposite sides of a long straight road. The only rule is that you each have to stay to the right side of the road. If the starting points for the aircraft are several miles apart, it will make the experiment results more realistic because you will not know exactly where the other plane is. This experiment will make a good excuse to go flying. Be sure to watch for other traffic too. It is not fair to just stare down the road. Once back on the ground, the distance apart at first sighting can be calculated using the DISTANCE = RATE x TIME formula. If the time between sighting and collision is 10 seconds or less, that is not enough time to recognize a threat, react to it, and get the aircraft to alter course. Post the results here for others to read.

Does the IFLY offer spoken audio alerts of traffic through the audio panel or is it only on the display?

Click to expand...

I do not know. I have not owned the iFly very long and have not yet connected its audio output to my aircraft audio system.

I stand with Joe - -

On very rare occasions, you can see single engine traffic over a mile if the background is near perfect. I schedule Flyouts, and we chat in route. We commonly talk about exactly where we are. We can't see each other unless a mile or less. Sometimes we have seen 2 miles, but it is very rare. Background has to be very helpful. 1 mile or less should be the standard. You can count on the display showing the traffic and know where to start looking if it is getting close. On a recent trip, I radioed a friend that he had traffic crossing his patch, but slightly above him. He saw it when it was maybe a mile or less. Said he would never had seen it unless I had pointed it out.

TCAS systems that have been around for a long time never ask you to alter course to avoid a conflict (that's ATC's job). When a threat is recognized, the system will ask you to "monitor vertical speed", which will be giving you a command to climb or descend. The TCAS equipment in the conflict airplane (if he has one) will be giving him the opposite command. If you find yourself close to another airplane with your ADSB equipment, the quickest course of action to avoid a conflict is to climb or descend. That's one reason why ADSB accuracy is very important. My GRT Sport, connected to my NavWorx box shows the relative altitude of other traffic, but also shows whether that traffic is climbing or descending, and that's probably the same with all of these systems. When I get a ping for conflicting traffic, my response should be a climb or descent to avoid a conflict, unless I have acquired the aircraft visually and determine there is no conflict.

Just to add - -

If a faster plane is coming up behind you, without ADS-B equipment, you VERY likely do not know it. I get a Banner that pops up and warns where the traffic is and always displays their Alt. Plain and simple - the system is a serious aid to safety.

faster traffic

JBPILOT said:

If a faster plane is coming up behind you, without ADS-B equipment, you VERY likely do not know it. ...

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This has happened to me and it's scary. Another good reason to finish my 8 so I'll be the fastest guy in the sky!

I had an experience a few years back... pre adsb days. I was on a cross county in my Cessna 152. Somewhere in North Carolina in my peripheral vision I was startled to notice a Cherokee about 300 feet to my left and about 50 feet higher than my altitude slowly pulling ahead of my wing leadings edge, (that's when I saw him). His heading was about 15? right of my flight path. He never made any evasive moves so he never saw me. I was lower and probably blended into the earth background to him. I never had to alter course and it was beautiful to watch him slowly pulling away. It was very close though. With adsb, I would have know about him long before any potential conflict occurred!

Once again, I hope the FAA and Navworx get it worked out. They have fantastic products for thousands less than their competition!

This ADSB is good stuff.

We have a Garmin 345, 650, 530, 510, foreflight combo in our Bonanza. Made a 100+NM lunch trip yesterday and on both legs had crossing traffic at our altitude (6500/7500). Both ended up with about 1/2 mile separation. One we let pass behind without altering course and the other we stopped a climb at 5500 to keep him above and behind us. Continuing the climb would have put him much closer horizontally. We were monitoring center, heard nothing on the frequency and saw no change in their direction or altitude.

I have a Garmin 330es with TIS in the RV8 and nothing special in the Cessna 180, but use a Stratus 2S. Planning an ADSB out solution for both.

Would not consider these close calls, but the number of aircraft spotted with the help of full ADSB is amazing. Flight following would of also been helpful.

I am a believer.

GM