Fine Tuning RV-8 Landing Technique

This post is a manifestation of a head game for a new RV-8 tail wheel pilot. I am determined to find a technique that will have a predictable out come every time for me. Its probably in the boring column for experienced 8 pilots but it may be of interest for those still in the forest with a tail wheel like myself.

I have stopped "flaring" the airplane to land it.

I guess I should qualify that statement.

I know this is all a head game, you have to break the sink to land any airplane or it will contact the surface rudely and not be pleasant. What i've done is stopped using a deliberate traditional flare - raising nose, reducing power and landing.

I fly the machine to within 2 inches of the runway, level off and let it squeak on before reducing thrust. it works well, even with a little cross wind like today - just drop the up wind wing and the tire will touch.

I've been working on this the last few days. The outcome is satisfactory. After touch down (with ever so gentle forward stick) reduce power, fly the tail down, then full aft stick to keep it there.

The down side is, obviously, this is no short field technique. But it sure works well (for me) on a 5000' concrete runway. I estimate walking speed in about 1800' without using brakes. This is with approach speed of 65 knots, 40 flaps and power as needed to maintain VASI glide slope.

Landing technique

Dave,

I know I don't have an -8 but with my long gear on my -4 your technique is what always works best for me. Fly 70 mph on final, fly it onto the runway and just as the wheels touch chop the power. I try to hold the tail off just a little and let it settle gently then a bit of fwd stick and gentle braking. If you can get off safely by E-3 on Rwy 26R at Spirit Airport then the technique is working.

For grass it's a little different and much more forgiving trying to 3 point it.

Oly

David-aviator said:

The down side is, obviously, this is no short field technique. But it sure works well (for me) on a 5000' concrete runway. I estimate walking speed in about 1800' without using brakes. This is with approach speed of 65 knots, 40 flaps and power as needed to maintain VASI glide slope.

Click to expand...

That is the one problem with developing a landing technique that focuses on only landing that way (well I guess it is not a problem, if you don't care if you ever land at airports with shorter runways).

That would rule out a lot of the fun airports here in the Pacific North West...

It can also limit your abilities if you are ever in a tough spot and have to land in a small space at minimum airspeed (forced landing).

anytime you can re use the airplane after a landing...... is a good landing

olyolson said:

Dave,

I know I don't have an -8 but with my long gear on my -4 your technique is what always works best for me. Fly 70 mph on final, fly it onto the runway and just as the wheels touch chop the power. I try to hold the tail off just a little and let it settle gently then a bit of fwd stick and gentle braking. If you can get off safely by E-3 on Rwy 26R at Spirit Airport then the technique is working.

For grass it's a little different and much more forgiving trying to 3 point it.

Oly

Click to expand...

Oly I have to add power to get to Echo 3 most days.

I still fly into Troy now and then but have lost the touch I had when living there and landing on 1700' of grass. It's a little more tense than it was, especially with a direct cross wind. The slightest bit of tail wind really makes that runway short, 5000' of concrete will spoil anyone.

David-aviator said:

This post is a manifestation of a head game for a new RV-8 tail wheel pilot. I am determined to find a technique that will have a predictable out come every time for me. Its probably in the boring column for experienced 8 pilots but it may be of interest for those still in the forest with a tail wheel like myself.

I have stopped "flaring" the airplane to land it.

I guess I should qualify that statement.

I know this is all a head game, you have to break the sink to land any airplane or it will contact the surface rudely and not be pleasant. What i've done is stopped using a deliberate traditional flare - raising nose, reducing power and landing.

I fly the machine to within 2 inches of the runway, level off and let it squeak on before reducing thrust. it works well, even with a little cross wind like today - just drop the up wind wing and the tire will touch.

I've been working on this the last few days. The outcome is satisfactory. After touch down (with ever so gentle forward stick) reduce power, fly the tail down, then full aft stick to keep it there.

The down side is, obviously, this is no short field technique. But it sure works well (for me) on a 5000' concrete runway. I estimate walking speed in about 1800' without using brakes. This is with approach speed of 65 knots, 40 flaps and power as needed to maintain VASI glide slope.

Click to expand...

I had 80+ tailwheel hours and could grease a Decathlon on every landing when I bought my -8.

I found the -8 to be different in that it stops flying sharply when it decides to. The last 6" were the problem and I'd get a little hop out of it on contact.

So the technique that was suggested to me is get it to the 6" point and when you feel it about to stop flying add a tiny bit of power. Try to keep it flying as usual. If you feel the bottom drop out - add another few rpm. Nothing much. Just a tiny bit to get more prop wash over the wings. That smoothed things out.

David-aviator said:

The down side is, obviously, this is no short field technique. But it sure works well (for me) on a 5000' concrete runway. I estimate walking speed in about 1800' without using brakes. This is with approach speed of 65 knots, 40 flaps and power as needed to maintain VASI glide slope.

Click to expand...

Dave,

When I started flying my -8 I generally wheel-landed using a similar technique. I could make remarkably smooth landings that way; occasionally I had to look down to make sure I was really on the ground. This was at an airport where the shortest runway was 6000'.

Since then I've moved to a different airport and evolved toward doing 3-pointers. I usually make the first taxiway without much drama (1100'); the tradeoff is that they're not always greasers. Sometimes I'll misjudge height slightly and get little hop (or two; they all count as landings right?). Often I'm dancing on the pedals a bit to keep it straight. The landings usually don't register on local seismometers though, and I haven't broken anything yet. The practice gives me confidence when going into shorter grass strips.

A side benefit is that the show is over while I'm still some distance from the terminal. Harder for the locals to see a bounce from a half mile away...

Alan Carroll said:

Dave,

When I started flying my -8 I generally wheel-landed using a similar technique. I could make remarkably smooth landings the way; occasionally I had to look down to make sure I was really on the ground. This was at an airport where the shortest runway was 6000'.

Since then I've moved to a different airport and evolved toward doing 3-pointers. I usually make the first taxiway without much drama (1100'); the tradeoff is that they're not always greasers. Sometimes I'll misjudge height slightly and get little hop (or two; they all count as landings right?). Often I'm dancing on the pedals a bit to keep it straight. The landings usually don't register on local seismometers though, and I haven't broken anything yet. The practice gives me confidence when going into shorter grass strips.

A side benefit is that the show is over while I'm still some distance from the terminal. Harder for the locals to see a bounce from a half mile away...

Click to expand...

Thanks Alan, we are on the same page.

I first flew this thing out of a short runway and managed to survive with very little tail wheel experience. Now after moving and having the luxury of long runways, the short field experience has faded and it is work getting it done.

Practise, practice - it works. Even when feeling comfortable the 8 is a challenge when near stall and not on the ground. The landing may or may not be what one wants. The machine will be out of energy but it sure likes to get in a last minute bounce if it can.

I found on the short grass strip, a tail low landing and then forward stick to keep it there worked quite well. Had no trouble in stopping in less than 1000' unless there was a tail wind. Even the slightest tail wind really screwed it up. Somedays with a variable direct cross wind it was difficult choosing landing direction. It seemed there was a tail wind no matter what.

I also found some runway is lost holding it off for a 3 pointer. The wheel touch down and forward stick technique generally required no more runway. Granted, if you fly the approach at near stall and plop it on 3 points, the landing distance will be the least. But I don't like flying over trees at near stall speed.

A local CFI resident at that airport with thousands of hours tail wheel experience always lands on wheels with forward stick to keep it there. I have seen him do it with a Cub, RV-6, a Pitts and a Thorpe. And being over 80, he has been doing this a long time.

It is a matter of personal technique and what works for an individual.

The fly-it-on technique, and technique is what it is, seems to work just fine on a hard surface long runway, at least for me. And that's all that matters.

Dc-3's are always landed that way.

IF by Spirit you mean KSUS you've got a great shorter paved runway and a grass runway right next door at Creve Coeur (1H0) to practice on.

DC3

DC3s are landed that way because of the less than forgiving stall characteristics with full flaps. Beech 18 is more forgiving stall but still not great. I have never tried to three point the Beech. Tail low wheel landing at a low speed but never three point. Reno racer landings in T6 and Unlimited are almost always tail low wheel landings except for Rare Bear which doesn't have prop clearance for a wheel landing.
Sukhoi 26/29/31 are always three point because of limited prop clearance.

There are many ways to land an RV8 with different techniques needed for different conditions. Short field, soft field, crosswind, IFR approach, night time, etc. are not flown the same. With 1500+ RV8 hours, 2500+ tailwheel hours and 5000+ tailwheel landings my standard go to is a full flap tail low wheel landing. This gives consistent, smooth, controlled, relatively short landings in easily less than 1000 feet.

If the field is soft with plenty of room I use power as needed, into a three point, to the most firm spot on the runway. If the field is short and soft, the approach is flown behind the power curve to the approach end of the runway and power chopped into a three pointer.

IFR and night approaches are flown with approach power to the runway, feel for the runway, then lower the power. The same for long runways when one needs to get to a far off taxiway or there is traffic following.

My goal on any normal RV landing is to take two seconds from round out to stall. That means you have two seconds to figure out where the runway is and be on the ground. Less time gives little room to figure things out and more time just makes the landing longer. When learning a new plane I sneak up lowering approach speeds, aggressiveness of the roundout and timing the power chop until I have the plane figured out. I plan the round out to end up tail low just off the runway then move the stick slightly back and forth, left and right, until I feel one of the mains touch. When one touches give slight stick forward pressure, the other wheel will immediately follow and power, if there is any, is chopped and brakes applied if wanted or needed.

I have a constant speed prop and fly normal approaches at 68 knots with behind the power curve slow approaches at 63 knots. Any slower has a high sink rate or requires a lot of power. Fixed pitch and lighter planes can be flown slower. The two second rule works for all types. When flying heavy everything changes and one must adjust. Practice with ballast.

Practice and set high standards. If it was easy it would not be such a big deal to be good at it.

George Meketa
Rv8, Cessna 180, PA12 supercruiser, V-tail Bonanza. All at the same time.

If you get bored flying your standards are too low.

Thanks George, that was a good post.