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Update from the mother ship

I do hope we get more info on laser cut parts. I’ve always heard that the heat makes it prone to cracking. I’m fully confident Vans has investigated and determined it’s safe, but I would love for them to put my wandering mind at ease! Haha
 
I do hope we get more info on laser cut parts. I’ve always heard that the heat makes it prone to cracking. I’m fully confident Vans has investigated and determined it’s safe, but I would love for them to put my wandering mind at ease! Haha

if its good enough for the airlines...
 
Greg and Rian talked a lot about quick build but didnt say anything about slow builds. So it seems that parts are being prioritized to go into shipping containers?
 
The update is very much appreciated. It’s good to hear about some of the challenges being faced, and what’s being done to correct them.

I feel like what I want to hear most is an updated lead time window. Just setting expectations goes a long way and allows some additional planning to occur. I know that dates can still change but providing best information when available really helps.

As of now, I’ve paid for the kit in full after being notified that the kit was ready to be crated and now can’t get any idea about what stage things are in, what lead
Time looks like, etc.

That’s the update I really want: will it be no early than 4 weeks, 8 weeks, 16 weeks?

Thanks again for all of the hard work behind the scenes, Vans Team. Looking forward to building.
 
While I do appreciate Vans creating that video as a direct result of the talks on this forum, I can honestly say it didn’t give me the warm and fuzzies. Call me hard to please.

Obviously for these kits to go together with prefabricated holes, precision of manufacturing and quality control are of the utmost importance. Outsourcing these procedures are ripe for quality issues if not kept under a very watchful eye.

I’m not quite sure how good I feel about my build being the test bed for a new method of manufacture either. I really hope these methods have been throughly tested and proven. Could you imagine assembling one of these planes only to find years later that the methods employed to create kits at a faster rate were actually detrimental to the project as a whole!? Cracking and precision of manufacturing are a real concern.
 
While I do appreciate Vans creating that video as a direct result of the talks on this forum, I can honestly say it didn’t give me the warm and fuzzies. Call me hard to please.

Obviously for these kits to go together with prefabricated holes, precision of manufacturing and quality control are of the utmost importance. Outsourcing these procedures are ripe for quality issues if not kept under a very watchful eye.

I’m not quite sure how good I feel about my build being the test bed for a new method of manufacture either. I really hope these methods have been throughly tested and proven. Could you imagine assembling one of these planes only to find years later that the methods employed to create kits at a faster rate were actually detrimental to the project as a whole!? Cracking and precision of manufacturing are a real concern.


I agree. I also was thinking about the transition to final size holes. Will laser require us to drill again?
 
I have to say that I'm not surprised at the simply superior customer focus vans aircraft has always exhibited. Unlike so many companies that will just pass on cost increases to customers, Vans bends over backwards attempting to keep quality up, costs under control all the while communicating this information to their customers. There reaching out through a video like this answers a lot of questions and gives customers an inside glimpse of the what's and why's of what's going on.
 
As a lot of you know, I am friends with many of the folks at Vans, as well as many of the people that work in other kit companies around the country (and the globe). I can count on the fingers of one of Stein’s hands the number of folks in that huge group of people who are in this just for themselves - by far, everyone in this industry is in it for their customers and the greater good of experimental aviation. So when you see this (and I recommend watching the whole thing), you can trust that there is no hidden agenda - Greg and Rian are being honest and open about the challenges and the solutions.

I personally think that one of the best things about this video is the insight it gives into just how complex Van’s Aircraft is. This is not Van and his brother bashing out wing ribs in his barn. When Rian talks about engineering, he really means engineering - there is no “that looks about right” when it comes to finding methods, vendors, or materials. Every change or new design is evaluated for safety and longevity, as wel as from a business perspective. The complexity frankly amazes me - and I am used to “complex”.

And…..everything I have said applies to most of the kit industry. If you think you don't want to wait for an RV kit, so you’ll go elsewhere, good luck - the challenges are industry-wide. Lots of good folks out there are struggling to support the huge number of folks that want an E-AB kit right now! That’s a double-edged sword of course, so we just have to have patience and realize that the companies have to look at both the near and far term to make sure they are going to be here for their customers now and in the far future.

Great job Greg and Rian!

(Now about that airplane that we’re supposed to be flying…… just kidding! ;) )

Paul
 
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About 3 years ago I had the opportunity to take a fantastic insider tour of the Vans operation, and talk to a lot of people there (including Dick himself, and Barb, remember her?). At that time the operation from top to bottom was (to an outsider) already running max'd out, with a significant number of choke points that were patently obvious. But this is how they did business, and it was working, so who am I to make comment.

We all know that it's been just months since the "hands on" face of Vans moved to Greg and Rian, and they have made great strides that moved that company into the 21st century, from what started as a "one" man show to what appears to be a flexible enterprise.

Looking back, if this 'demic had occurred five or ten years earlier, it seems to me that it would have been a whole different story for Vans. I dread the thought of how things would have gone without the leadership that is currently in place, and thankful for the hope that I might be able to build another of these machines in the future.

For all of you fearing all this new news, I hope you keep the faith that they're do the "right thing". Laser cutting technology sounds scary, and it (and other things) may change the way you build your plane, but it's been done elsewhere. Lots of changes coming for builders.

Thanks to Greg and Rian for their honest take on the challenges they're facing.

... there's my PollyAnna take on the day ... :)
 
Ex-pats and QC oversight

I might have missed this so please redirect me. With off shore manufacturing companies must have someone there from the US to oversee operations. Maybe Vans has representatives in their overseas operations but I've seen more than one company try to reduce costs and rely on workers overseas who have great intentions but cut costs to please the motherland. I was an ex-pat in Asia for over 20 years and I've seen this occur over and over. Now with Covid travel restrictions it is more important than ever to have someone there and not the travel oversees for a month and come home for 2 months routine. (Now with Covid impossible) Been there done that. Hopefully with the new facilities in Brazil they have experienced Vans people from the US overseeing operations. My guess is the quality issues from corrosion problem has put a delicate supply chain issue to the brink of possible disaster. Did Vans have experienced people from the US in the Philippines overseeing operations? Hopefully they will have people in place in Brazil and yes this costs money and as a customer I am glad to pay for it and not wait now well over one year (Closer to 2) for my QB kits. When someone is over 65 time is a precious commodity.
 
My guess is the quality issues from corrosion problem has put a delicate supply chain issue to the brink of possible disaster.

Lots of things have impacted the supply chain. One of the things not discussed (or that I haven't seen) is customer behavior. People are flooding businesses (including Vans) with orders because of the backlog. Here's how:

Customer: I was expecting a 4 month lead time for my empennage kit.

Vendor: Things are crazy, it is gonna be 8 months.

Customer: OK, put me down for the empennage. While you're at it, I'm gonna go ahead and order the wing kit, just to make sure I don't have to deal with another extended wait when I need the wings..

So now, the backlog for this customer has doubled.

Lather, rinse, repeat for multiple customers and it further clogs the supply chain.
 
I do hope we get more info on laser cut parts. I’ve always heard that the heat makes it prone to cracking. I’m fully confident Vans has investigated and determined it’s safe, but I would love for them to put my wandering mind at ease! Haha

We'll have a video dedicated to the materials and fatigue testing topic soon, and will discuss this in that context. The short version is, extensive testing was conducted and specific criteria and tolerances have to be met. We've invested in some new specialized machinery and made key hires in this area over the last couple of years.
 
... Hopefully with the new facilities in Brazil they have experienced Vans people from the US overseeing operations. My guess is the quality issues from corrosion problem has put a delicate supply chain issue to the brink of possible disaster...

We have an employee whose primary role is oversight of QB products and facilities, whose duties includes regular trips to both locations. In addition, the people running these assembly facilities have decades of experience in this industry and we have established inter-company communication, review, and feedback processes in place. It's true that the corrosion issue last year was a serious one in that it has taken quite a lot of time (and money) to address. The impact to our business and timelines was quite real and the supply chain issues meant even more complexity in working through the resolution.

Oversight is important, as is the choice of partners. Flyer in Brazil has many years of experience building hundreds of RVs, and is a strong, well-managed partner for Van's and our customers.
 
Greg, thanks. Operating overseas with well intended economics sounds nice and it could be the preverbal win-win. I’ve seen it over and over someone comes up with an idea that seems to make since, even improve quality and turns into a disaster. All well intended. Glad you have boots on the ground. We have found that if we did not have permanent employees in Asia now with Covid restrictions almost impossible to have them travel back and forth. This is mostly an issue in our China operations.
 
Greg,
Did I hear that the pre Dec 15 2021 ordered QB kits would have the freight surcharge rolled back? Or was the comment referencing that it had been rolled back to what was emailed ($375 surcharge I think?).
 
From the update video, it sounded like the first priority was to fill the QB pipeline to Brazil. That was accomplished with the first 100 QB kits sent last year south to Flyr (per the video). Totally understand why it was imperative to not waste the QB building capability.

With that now accomplished, how long until the KitStatus page is updated for the rest of us (SB kits) with anticipated crating dates? My keyboard is wearing out checking that page daily hoping for dates to appear. All I have now is "Parts Being Produced".
 
Henry,

Hoping we see some updates soon. I can handle some waiting and understand that there are challenges and complexities in the current environment. What REALLY helps is having an estimate, even just a rough guess as to setting expectations on crating for our orders. That allows for planning, scheduling, and prep work. And if things change again, adapt and flex as needed. But being clueless as to lead times now being 6 days, 6 weeks, 6 months, or longer is really tough to try and set any plans.

Are any of you other pilot guys and gals here planners…??? :-D

Patrick
 
Are any of you other pilot guys and gals here planners…??? :-D

I certainly am, and have a spreadsheet set up to figure out when I need to order what pieces to stay on schedule. Of course, I set this up once I had an idea of my actual working pace in my first kit, and then discovered the lead times had changed and I was already 5 months late ordering my next kit!!!

Like you I'm in the "parts being produced" state, just hoping that the "estimated crating date" I was given when I ordered is somewhere in the ball park. I sure would like to know whether it was realistic, though. I hope some of the changes they mentioned in the video that will allow automated date estimates come to pass quickly.
 
Greg,
Did I hear that the pre Dec 15 2021 ordered QB kits would have the freight surcharge rolled back? Or was the comment referencing that it had been rolled back to what was emailed ($375 surcharge I think?).

We've decided not to implement the QB surcharge that was announced - so "rolled back" is a fairly accurate way to describe it. A couple of people proactively sent their surcharge payments in right away and we will either reimburse or apply toward existing or future order(s), as the customer wishes.

FYI, the original purpose of the surcharge was to recoup a minor fraction (approximately 15-20%) of the increased costs of overseas transportation, which is a cost we have no control over. Feedback was mixed, and while the majority of that feedback was supportive we determined the time spent dealing with the loudest complaints was going to cost significantly more in goodwill and progress than preventing the loss was worth. Some of the customers who would have been impacted have already been waiting quite a while - often because of the replacements we had to produce to rectify the primer issue from last year. So, as a matter of goodwill we decided it was better to forego the surcharge this time. We still need (of course) to ensure we're not operating at a loss as we move forward, and we will make business decisions accordingly. Our primary purpose in business is to ensure that we can continue to be here for all builders, for a very long time. We've been doing this for 50 years. We plan to be around for at least 50 more.
 
I hope some of the changes they mentioned in the video that will allow automated date estimates come to pass quickly.

Our team is working aggressively on it, but as we described in the video update the refactoring process is complex with multiple manufacturing vendors being added in addition to the volume. Initially, we will be able to provide delivery timeframe info to people with orders that are closer in. The team is working on ability to provide info for everyone's orders, but the kits that are closest to being ready on the list are the first priority for establishing and communicating dates right now. I wish I could just tell you right now when to expect the info. I can confirm it's a lot of late nights and weekends for many people who are working to get to that point. As Rian mentioned, the information will be developed and become available over time.

Shameless Plug: For anyone who believes they can contribute, we're hiring for our needs now and in the future. So if you work and play well with others in real life :D maybe consider moving to Oregon and joining the team. It's certainly stressful right now as we do all of this work to make all of these changes, but it's an amazing group of people here and a terrific place to work. And once we're back to fulfilling orders in a timely manner and RV kits are readily available again, the employee discount on kits for those who want to build an RV ain't too bad either! I mean, if you wanted to build (another) one.
 
Greg thanks for the update, and for all you’re doing to manage the issues and complexities. I’ll do my best impression of myself as a kid (im)patiently waiting for Christmas as we await further updates…!

Patrick
 
... The team is working on ability to provide info for everyone's orders, but the kits that are closest to being ready on the list are the first priority for establishing and communicating dates right now. ...

Greg,

Can you provide any information on what you would consider "closest to being ready"?

Can we glean any information from the fact we have no estimates on KitStatus page? For example, would it be at least 2 month, 3 months or even 6 months out as it isn't "close in" with date estimate given?
 
Greg,

Can you provide any information on what you would consider "closest to being ready"?

Can we glean any information from the fact we have no estimates on KitStatus page? For example, would it be at least 2 month, 3 months or even 6 months out as it isn't "close in" with date estimate given?

YES! I have this same question. There has been information about the problems with the supply chain and actions taken, which is understandable and great, but nothing regarding what that looks like for customers. Something (and window of dates) would be better than nothing. Waiting on the slow build empennage and wing kit with “Parts Being Produced” while also having a QB Fuselage on order with a date range in 2023. I would love to have a date range for the SB stuff. Tired of the “we will update you soon” I’ve heard for the last couple months. What is soon?

Again, I understand the delays, I just don’t understand the inability to give a date range for SB stuff while giving date ranges for the QB kits next year.

Jeremy Fradet
 
Greg, thanks. Operating overseas with well intended economics sounds nice and it could be the preverbal win-win. I’ve seen it over and over someone comes up with an idea that seems to make since, even improve quality and turns into a disaster. All well intended. Glad you have boots on the ground. We have found that if we did not have permanent employees in Asia now with Covid restrictions almost impossible to have them travel back and forth. This is mostly an issue in our China operations.

The Philippines QB operation has been active for quite a while. Other than the recent corrosion/primer change (by the vendor) issue there has been very little major issues that I know of. It is not a new endeavor.
 
… but nothing regarding what that looks like for customers. Something (and window of dates) would be better than nothing. …

Again, I understand the delays, I just don’t understand the inability to give a date range for SB stuff while giving date ranges for the QB kits next year.

Jeremy Fradet

This is what we’re all hoping to see soon. A broad estimate at a minimum rather than a completely unspecified open-ended indefinite “stand by.” As of now I suppose I have to just assume the entire lead time posted for a new order is what I’m in for until we hear otherwise.
 
Or just have a countdown of position in line. Send out updates every two weeks or something. Like if I know that I'm number 200, then I go to 100, then 50 that I'd better liquidate some funds and get my cash ready.
 
This is what we’re all hoping to see soon. A broad estimate at a minimum rather than a completely unspecified open-ended indefinite “stand by.” As of now I suppose I have to just assume the entire lead time posted for a new order is what I’m in for until we hear otherwise.

+1
Ordered SB wing kit 8 months ago. Estimated delivery date passed with zero communication. Called Van’s and got the, we don’t have an estimate and hope to have a new estimate “soon”. It is nice to have an estimate but it’s more important to know when an estimate will no longer be met.
The problem is lack of communication. Clearly customers just want semi regular updates even if it’s bad news. We feel like stood up dates if estimates pass without any communication.
 
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