Anybody else have a problem squeezing the long (-8 and -9) 470AD4 round head rivets with the Avery squeezer? With the round head die on one side and the flat head on the other the tool just has to be opened too far to fit the rivet and have any leverage. Is it permissable to use two flat head dies, or will that flatten the round head too much?
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Page 20-04 Squeezing AD4-8 rivets with Avery Squeezer
- Thread starter BigJohn
- Start date
Martin Sutter
Well Known Member
Hi John,
Rivet squeezers develop their force at the very end of the stroke. With long rivets you may have to make two passes at it. First try to adjust the squeezer so that when it is closed the gap is just a few thousands less than the overall length of the set rivet. That will ensure that the more forceful part of the stroke is put to good use. If that does not work, do it in two steps, readjusting the gap after the first stroke. You should not use a flat set on the rounded head of the rivet as this might lead to cracking of the head. For the shop head side use the thinnest set you have available for the longer rivets. A1/8" set would be best.
p.s. I used to live in Gloversville in the 70's
Martin Sutter
building and flying RV's since 1988
EAA Tech counselor
Rivet squeezers develop their force at the very end of the stroke. With long rivets you may have to make two passes at it. First try to adjust the squeezer so that when it is closed the gap is just a few thousands less than the overall length of the set rivet. That will ensure that the more forceful part of the stroke is put to good use. If that does not work, do it in two steps, readjusting the gap after the first stroke. You should not use a flat set on the rounded head of the rivet as this might lead to cracking of the head. For the shop head side use the thinnest set you have available for the longer rivets. A1/8" set would be best.
p.s. I used to live in Gloversville in the 70's
Martin Sutter
building and flying RV's since 1988
EAA Tech counselor
MartySantic
Well Known Member
Hi John,
Had a similar problem with a lot of the AD4 rivets. Finally broke down a bought the Main Squeeze from Cleaveland Tools. With it, there is a mechanical advantage. Nevertheless, even with it, sometimes two/three passes were required when setting the larger rivets. Even tho the plans tell you it is OK to use the flat sets here, I did NOT cause I did not like the way my sample rivets looked after trying it that way using some scrap.
Had a similar problem with a lot of the AD4 rivets. Finally broke down a bought the Main Squeeze from Cleaveland Tools. With it, there is a mechanical advantage. Nevertheless, even with it, sometimes two/three passes were required when setting the larger rivets. Even tho the plans tell you it is OK to use the flat sets here, I did NOT cause I did not like the way my sample rivets looked after trying it that way using some scrap.
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az_gila
Well Known Member
Actually, the flat sets...
3.3.3.2 Rivet set.
Flat dies may be used on the manufactured head of universal head rivets provided the head is not flattened beyond the dimensions specified on Table II.
For the 1/8 rivets, the head must not be flattened to less than 0.042 inches high - they should be 0.054-0.064 high out of the box. The heads should not crack with the flat set.
My old c. 1990 Mil-Spec html version, now internet wide...
http://www.auf.asn.au/scratchbuilder/MIL-R-47196A.pdf
...are OK according to the Mil-Spec....
3.3.3.2 Rivet set.
Flat dies may be used on the manufactured head of universal head rivets provided the head is not flattened beyond the dimensions specified on Table II.
For the 1/8 rivets, the head must not be flattened to less than 0.042 inches high - they should be 0.054-0.064 high out of the box. The heads should not crack with the flat set.
My old c. 1990 Mil-Spec html version, now internet wide...
http://www.auf.asn.au/scratchbuilder/MIL-R-47196A.pdf
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If you are using a pneumatic squeezer, go to www.cleavelandtool.com and click on the pneumatic squeezer and scroll down to the three pages of pneumatic squeezer instructions. They have certianly helped us on the1/8" solid rivets.
Update
All,
I bit the bullet and just squeeezed all the rivets with the flat dies. The heads have flat spots but no cracks. After I finished I got a nice reply from Bob Avery in response to my inquiry to Avery Tools on this issue. Bob told me due to many requests they have added a short cupped die to the Avery RV-12 kit, and he is sending me one free of charge. Now that is good customer support! So if there are any more long rivets to be set I will have the right tool for the job. Thanks Bob.
All,
I bit the bullet and just squeeezed all the rivets with the flat dies. The heads have flat spots but no cracks. After I finished I got a nice reply from Bob Avery in response to my inquiry to Avery Tools on this issue. Bob told me due to many requests they have added a short cupped die to the Avery RV-12 kit, and he is sending me one free of charge. Now that is good customer support! So if there are any more long rivets to be set I will have the right tool for the job. Thanks Bob.
I have no problem with the -8 and -9 rivets using a Cleavland Main Squeeze rivet squeezer and 1/8" cupped and flat rivet sets, however the shop heads of the AN470AD4-8 rivets on the Fuselage Center Section Assy measure undersize after squeezing. Diameter is at minimum, 0.171" and height is under at, 0.033". The use of -9 rivets appear to be perfect and the heads appear to be the same size as the preassembled rivets on the fwd side. Does anyone else have this problem? I haven't seen any commments about this in the forums. I've notified Van's Support for their input.
I also noticed I have circular dent at the edge of the rivet manufactured head from my cupped rivet set after squeezing. Is this common or do I have to replace the rivet set? It has no defects, but does appear to be sharp at the edge of the cup. I purchased it some time ago from U.S. Industrial Tool.
Thank you lead builders for the help you have provided in the forums. As you may have guessed I am working on the Fuselage, having finished the Empennage, Tail Cone and Wings.
I also noticed I have circular dent at the edge of the rivet manufactured head from my cupped rivet set after squeezing. Is this common or do I have to replace the rivet set? It has no defects, but does appear to be sharp at the edge of the cup. I purchased it some time ago from U.S. Industrial Tool.
Thank you lead builders for the help you have provided in the forums. As you may have guessed I am working on the Fuselage, having finished the Empennage, Tail Cone and Wings.
MartySantic
Well Known Member
I used the cupped set. Had the same problem with those rivets, they would NOT pass using the go/no-go rivet gauge. I was able to pass the criteria in the MIL Spec, measuring the rivets with a micrometer. See
http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/Specs.htm
I also called Van's and asked the question. They also pointed me to Section 5D in the plans which has a note that discusses rivets that appear to be too short.
I did not have a problem with the set causing a deformation in the head. Bought the dies from Avery. Might be a quality/$ case?
http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/Specs.htm
I also called Van's and asked the question. They also pointed me to Section 5D in the plans which has a note that discusses rivets that appear to be too short.
I did not have a problem with the set causing a deformation in the head. Bought the dies from Avery. Might be a quality/$ case?
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Thanks Marty,
I read the note in 5D. That justifies the use of the -8 rivets which will provide a smaller shop head. If your holes are even slightly oversize, the length of the rivet hole will absorb a lot of rivet material before it upsets into a shop head.
I'm waiting for a reply from Van's Support before I proceed. Since this is a high visibility area I think I will use -9 rivets to match the shop heads on the fwd side of the Center Section Assy. Also less hassel at final inspection.
I agree with you about the cupped set. I've already ordered a new one from Avery.
Art Pennanen
I read the note in 5D. That justifies the use of the -8 rivets which will provide a smaller shop head. If your holes are even slightly oversize, the length of the rivet hole will absorb a lot of rivet material before it upsets into a shop head.
I'm waiting for a reply from Van's Support before I proceed. Since this is a high visibility area I think I will use -9 rivets to match the shop heads on the fwd side of the Center Section Assy. Also less hassel at final inspection.
I agree with you about the cupped set. I've already ordered a new one from Avery.
Art Pennanen
Big John.. When I get to the longer rivets, can I get at them with a standard rivet gun and AN470 rivet set and bucking bar?
Thanks,
Jeff
Jeff,
You can probably buck these rivets if you have the right equipment, I don't. I did receive the short cupped die from Bob Avery and used it to put one more squeeze on those number 8 rivets. They are still a little bit sloppy in the rivet gauge, but indication from Van's documentation, instructions, and support is that they will be OK. I'm sure not drilling them out now! They look OK and are according to the plans. Some of my factory heads have some marks in them too from my various attempts at squeezing them with the flat dies, but they are not cracked (I looked closely with maginfying glass) and the marks are only cosmetic. I'm moving on!
John
You can probably buck these rivets if you have the right equipment, I don't. I did receive the short cupped die from Bob Avery and used it to put one more squeeze on those number 8 rivets. They are still a little bit sloppy in the rivet gauge, but indication from Van's documentation, instructions, and support is that they will be OK. I'm sure not drilling them out now! They look OK and are according to the plans. Some of my factory heads have some marks in them too from my various attempts at squeezing them with the flat dies, but they are not cracked (I looked closely with maginfying glass) and the marks are only cosmetic. I'm moving on!
John
