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Lauren Paine article in SA

Alan Carroll

Well Known Member
Lauran Paine's has a column on "Aviation Courtesy" in the Oct. issue of SA which addresses risky behavior on the part of some pilots. This is clearly an important topic that needs to be discussed, but I thought the piece came down rather hard on RVs. Much of it consists of a letter from a reader who is quite obviously biased against RVs, and who apparently regards all RV pilots as inherently reckless.

The letter also describes an accident from 20 years ago in which an RV collided with another airplane during a "strafing run", resulting in 4 fatalities. However I can find no record of such an accident in the NTSB database, at any point in time. Did this really happen, and I'm just missing it in my search? Or did the letter writer have the facts wrong?

My own experience has that irresponsible pilots do indeed exist, but they are by no means restricted to the RV community. They also are a rather small minority of pilots overall.
 
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Kinda timely with the why no RV owner association question

well,... crickets so far in response,.. so let me offer this

In addition to the help with known quirks of the type,... many associations work on increased safety of their pilots. Usually not a direct "stop ticket" or negative points, but at least positive reinforcement of safe practices, and nurturing a culture of "We" want to be known as safe. At times it is minor,.. at times as with Cirrus and the chutes (pull early and often) it has made dramatic changes.

The Lauran Paine article is not just about an accident twenty years ago, it is about a relatively current event, and a pilot when confronted with it (and, unfortunately it probably was confrontational instead of a learning moment) blew it off. ..and so the RV community continues to have a bad rep,.... with a basis

Now I know Doug is a safety conscious kinda guy. If you don't, then you haven't read his required attire for flying or seen his video of him working his checklist. I also know a lot of folks on here spent considerable amount of time on a syllabus/safety course for operating RVs. There are also a number of folks on here that have skill far beyond most GA type. Beyond that,... there are those that are sorta in the "old way" of kick the tires, light the fires, first one in the air is flight leader approach. Best I can determine, that did not really work out all that well for some,... and caused issues for those left behind.

Now,.... how are we getting the "RV community" to get to a point of "WE" AND getting RV drivers to the point of being willing to listen to a "question or safety point",... AND be willing to act on it with changing actions and attitudes.

Fly Safe,... and remind me I asked to be reminded of that when necessary
 
well,... crickets so far in response,.. so let me offer this

In addition to the help with known quirks of the type,... many associations work on increased safety of their pilots. Usually not a direct "stop ticket" or negative points, but at least positive reinforcement of safe practices, and nurturing a culture of "We" want to be known as safe. At times it is minor,.. at times as with Cirrus and the chutes (pull early and often) it has made dramatic changes.

The Lauran Paine article is not just about an accident twenty years ago, it is about a relatively current event, and a pilot when confronted with it (and, unfortunately it probably was confrontational instead of a learning moment) blew it off. ..and so the RV community continues to have a bad rep,.... with a basis

Now I know Doug is a safety conscious kinda guy. If you don't, then you haven't read his required attire for flying or seen his video of him working his checklist. I also know a lot of folks on here spent considerable amount of time on a syllabus/safety course for operating RVs. There are also a number of folks on here that have skill far beyond most GA type. Beyond that,... there are those that are sorta in the "old way" of kick the tires, light the fires, first one in the air is flight leader approach. Best I can determine, that did not really work out all that well for some,... and caused issues for those left behind.

Now,.... how are we getting the "RV community" to get to a point of "WE" AND getting RV drivers to the point of being willing to listen to a "question or safety point",... AND be willing to act on it with changing actions and attitudes.

Fly Safe,... and remind me I asked to be reminded of that when necessary

Thanks for your thoughts. I certainly agree that EAA and other associations should be (and are) working to promote safety. The general theme of this piece is a worthy one. I'm just not sure I see how painting one particular subset of pilots as the bad guys makes anyone safer. In my personal experience the great majority of those "D--- RV drivers" are not in fact the irresponsible cowboys they're being made out to be. Frankly I'm surprised EAA would publish such an inflammatory letter without a shred of hard data to back it up.

No doubt there are also some RV pilots who have earned a bad rep. I've seen some of the same maneuvers described in the article performed by Lancairs, Pitts, SX300s, Long-EZs, Supercubs, and more warbirds than I can count. The issue, however its defined, extends far beyond any one type of airplane.
 
When you see that over half of the homebuilts at OSH were RVs, if the cowboy population is 5% of homebuilts then over half of them will be RVers. Also, having the performance and maneuverability of an RV will just be too tempting for some, Van himself in his younger days included by his own admission. And people with the hotdog mentality will be attracted to RVs because there are no certified airplanes that deliver the same bang for the buck in terms of performance.

Any generalization is going to be inaccurate and unfair to individuals. But it would not surprise me if there were a high percentage of RV offenders. The only solution is education and positive role models and peer pressure. And some guys you just won't reach and you will read about them in the paper.
 
Any generalization is going to be inaccurate and unfair to individuals. But it would not surprise me if there were a high percentage of RV offenders. The only solution is education and positive role models and peer pressure. And some guys you just won't reach and you will read about them in the paper.

True.

Some people (aka "weenies") will take the above as liberty to tell people with far more experience and qualifications that "you're doing it wrong". I would hope the same positive role model-ship and peer pressure would be used to suggest that if said weenie would sit down and listen, he might learn a thing or two. It goes both ways.

Then again, watching a hundred-hour wonder lecture the guy with more certs, types, and hours than the entire room (not to mention his military experience) is entertaining ;)
 
Accidents

I think for starters you have to break it down into subcategories. Weather, aerobatics etc.
One interesting statistic is the relatively good record of aerobatic pilots who have pushed weather far beyond reasonable limits. Want a few names: Duane Cole, Paul Poberezny, Leo Laudenslager and a very large percentage of the pilots who were involved in aerobatics in the 70's and 80's. Duane wrote a column for Flying Magazine for a short time. He got the boot when he wrote an article about scud running which was way beyond the absurd. How did these people and so many others survive?? They never ever panicked, never stopped flying the airplane.
Other interesting aspects of Aerobatics; before the widespread availability of advanced spin training pilots were spinning into the ground on a fairly regular basis. That statistic has not gone away, but is vastly improved.
The tolerance, even encouragement of ridiculous behavior at sanctioned contests has changed dramatically. Low inverted passes down the ramp? A three airplane formation returning home playing "chicken" with semi trucks? Pretty much things of the distance past. The post 9/11 environment has played a significant part in this. I could write a book but who would believe it. Also many of the stars are still with us.
 
Accidents

To make this more RV related, when I was instructing aerobatics I flew with an older gentleman who had bought an RV6 and tried to teach himself rolls. He stopped the roll and pulled thru from level inverted flight, airspeed got to around 300, lots of G's and VERY close to the ground.
You may recall a similar situation with a very bad outcome that was widely discussed a few years ago.
20 plus years between the events, some things never change.
 
Lauren Paine's has a column on "Aviation Courtesy" in the Oct. issue of SA which addresses risky behavior on the part of some pilots. This is clearly an important topic that needs to be discussed, but I thought the piece came down rather hard on RVs.

I'm sure Lauren (and the editorial staff at SA) thought it fair because Lauren himself is an RV owner/builder/pilot. I agree.

My take-away was not so much "be safe", but rather "don't be a jerk". There's a time and place for everything. Frightening non-participants, or risking their lives, is always inappropriate.
 
The article raised my blood pressure a few points but we have to realize there is a significant segment of the aviation population that doesn't like 'RV drivers'.

Unfortunately, we are primary factors in creating that unfavorable impression and it will stick for a long time regardless of how careful we now are to be responsible neighbors. The damage has been done.

However, progress can be made. I sense the adverse opinion in my little corner of the community is not as prevalent as it was 15 years ago when the sky was suddenly darkened by the RV horde. Progress can be made in incremental steps if we each determine to do our part.
 
Unfortunately, we are primary factors in creating that unfavorable impression and it will stick for a long time regardless of how careful we now are to be responsible neighbors.

The person holding the unfavorable impression also plays a part, however. How much I care about that individuals impression relates to my impression of their experience and judgement.

For example, I was told by relatively low time, non-IFR rated, non-RV individual that IFR in my RV is dangerous and irresponsible. After explaining that the aircraft is equipped and I have the currency and proficiency to do so safely, this individual shared that he thought RVs were simply unsafe for IFR. It's hard for me to care what this individuals impression is, given his lack of training and experience.
 
Huh. I must be hanging out with the wrong people. I've never -- not once-- gotten a discouraging word regarding RVators. When I land in small airports, the old-timers come out to see the plane and I tell them all about it. If there are kids around, they get to sit in it. Want to put fingerprints on a finely polished airplane? Go ahead.

Enroute, I'm courteous to the controllers and the other people in the air.

The thing is: I'm a pilot and I built an airplane and it's known as an RV. I'm not in a cult. I don't get defensive automatically because someone has appeared to insult my tribe.

I saw nothing wrong in Lauran's article that bothered me. There are jerks out there and some of them fly RVs.

Some pilots may transfer their personal experiences with RV pilots to the RV community at large. Meh.

I just don't have time to worry about that sort of thing anymore.

In our social media world, I swear people get up in the morning looking for the outrage of the day. There are people you're going to agree with and people you aren't. Fly right. Don't be a jerk. Makes sense to me. If people don't like me because I fly an RV, that's perfectly fine with me. One less set of fingerprints to buff out.
 
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Huh. I must be hanging out with the wrong people. I've never -- not once-- gotten a discouraging word regarding RVators. When I land in small airports, the old-timers come out to see the plane and I tell them all about it. If there are kids around, they get to sit in it. Want to put fingerprints on a finely polished airplane? Go ahead.

Enroute, I'm courteous to the controllers and the other people in the air.

The thing is: I'm a pilot and I built an airplane and it's known as an RV. I'm not in a cult. I don't get defensive automatically because someone has appeared to insult my tribe.

I saw nothing wrong in Lauran's article that bothered me. There are jerks out there and some of them fly RVs.

Some pilots may transfer their personal experiences with RV pilots to the RV community at large. Meh.

I just don't have time to worry about that sort of thing anymore.

In our social media world, I swear people get up in the morning looking for the outrage of the day.

Agree 100%. I hang out on various aviation websites like AOPA (aka the Red Board) and Pilots of America (aka POA, aka the Blue board) plus a number of others. Here's my observations:

-- RV's get a bad rap from some mainly because we comprise the majority of E-ABs so we are the magnet for criticism (comes with the territory when you are the majority)
-- It only takes a few to poison the rep for the rest of us. And while, like Bob, I have yet to witness bad RV-pilot behavior and/or stupid pilot tricks, I'm pretty sure it happens.
-- The aviation forums tend to be dominated by a relatively small number of posters compared to the number of registered members. So folks with an ax to grind stand out. RV's aren't the only one's in this boat -- Cirrus owners/pilots seems to catch a lot of criticism too.
-- Haters gonna hate regardless of any logical arguments or positive outreach. The best we can do is to try not to be a contributor to the problem and/or bad perception.
 
I sense there is also something else at work here as well.

'Fighter jocks' have always been the 'wild' branch of aviation. It has always been a perception of the straight and level branch of aviation that anyone going upside down in an airplane is a bit (or a lot crazy). And for them, for their aircraft, it is crazy. For an RV, that is just part of the approved envelope.

It is like George Carlin says, 'Anyone going faster than you on the freeway is crazy, and anyone slower is an idiot.'

I don't see that ever changing.
 
I sense there is also something else at work here as well.

It is like George Carlin says, 'Anyone going faster than you on the freeway is crazy, and anyone slower is an idiot.'

.

Man he was brilliant. I'll add "anyone with a nicer more expensive airplane is a rich ***". (Cirrus envy - insert word of your choice).
 
Huh. I must be hanging out with the wrong people. I've never -- not once-- gotten a discouraging word regarding RVators. When I land in small airports, the old-timers come out to see the plane and I tell them all about it. If there are kids around, they get to sit in it. Want to put fingerprints on a finely polished airplane? Go ahead.

Enroute, I'm courteous to the controllers and the other people in the air.

The thing is: I'm a pilot and I built an airplane and it's known as an RV. I'm not in a cult. I don't get defensive automatically because someone has appeared to insult my tribe.

I saw nothing wrong in Lauran's article that bothered me. There are jerks out there and some of them fly RVs.

Some pilots may transfer their personal experiences with RV pilots to the RV community at large. Meh.

I just don't have time to worry about that sort of thing anymore.

In our social media world, I swear people get up in the morning looking for the outrage of the day. There are people you're going to agree with and people you aren't. Fly right. Don't be a jerk. Makes sense to me. If people don't like me because I fly an RV, that's perfectly fine with me. One less set of fingerprints to buff out.

Bob,

I?m not outraged by the topic of the article, and in fact I think Lauran was making a very good and important point. However, it seems to me that the published letter is simply divisive, and not ultimately conducive to improving safety. Those targeted are likely to react defensively, as I probably did (I'll try to work on that...:)). Those not targeted may be left believing the issue doesn't really apply to them.

Like you, I've had nothing but positive personal experiences in 11 years of flying my RV. Lauran's piece leads me to wonder if these experiences are telling the whole story however.

Thanks for your perspective.
 
I think for starters you have to break it down into subcategories. Weather, aerobatics etc.

I disagree -- it all falls under the concept of "airmanship". We are talking about decisionmaking and judgment. We are talking about flight discipline.

Unfortunately, this is a topic that non-professional aviation has to struggle with every handful of years; most professional aviation has a set of standards and expectations that come with the job that -- generally -- are followed lest the pilots lose that job. Unfortunately, in non-professional aviation (e.g. GA flying, amongst other areas), we come from varied backgrounds, with varied levels of training, varied levels of experience, and varied beliefs about levels of what constitutes safe behavior in an airplane. Because of those variations, it is nearly impossible to have a single, understood standard/example of what "normal" behavior is, especially as pilots progress into flying more and more high performance airplanes that are capable of more high performance things.

The warbird community has struggled with this over the years, especially as the "old guard" of former professional military pilots who were the standard-bearers in the warbird community has died off and been replaced by a large number of non-professional pilots whose actual professions afforded them the wealth to own/operate high performance airplanes. Pilots who have not been trained formally or mentored by pilots with experience high performance flying (the same stuff mentioned in the article -- formation, aerobatics, low-level flying) unfortunately sometimes make the decision to have a go at it themselves. Or, alternately, they've been trained and mentored on how to do this stuff, and they still make the decision to engage in risky or illegal behavior anyway because of the laundry list of "hazardous attitudes". There was a point about 5-6 years ago where every single fatal warbird accident that year was a result of pilot error, and most of it from guys saying "watch this!" and doing things that were far riskier than circumstances dictated or were above their heads trying to do something their training or experience could not support. The warbird community continues to struggle with this today, even having self-identified the issue and having taken steps to tighten up their own training and self-enforcement of good decisionmaking.

Either way, it constitutes bad decisionmaking, bad judgment, bad airmanship. Some (most?) pilots strive to learn and achieve excellence in these areas...but some don't. Some just want to go have a thrill, and think that they're good enough to make it work without killing or injuring themselves or others.

In my opinion, if your take-away from the article is that the author is unfairly pointing a finger at RV pilots, then you've gleaned entirely the wrong thing from it. Such an article should, instead, cause us to look at ourselves and our fellow pilots, and examine if we have those same thoughts and behaviors. He's right that no pilot thinks of himself as dangerous, and none of us wake up in the morning and think, "hey, let's go out and do something stupid today!" Often we can't see it from inside the fishbowl -- sometimes it takes us stepping back and examining things from the outside to see these things. Sometimes it takes a friend, a fellow pilot, a mentor, or even a stranger to comment on what they think of your airmanship and judgment for us to realize that we may be slightly off the ranch.

It has to start with each of us wanting to be good airmen and both learning and exhibiting good judgment and decisionmaking. It extends to when we see bad judgment or poor airmanship out of fellow pilots, having the guts to go speak to them about it.
 
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The Lauren Paine article in October 2016 SA did what it was intended to do. Open a dialog on the subject of being courteous.

"cour?te?ous
ˈkərdēəs/
adjective
polite, respectful, or considerate in manner.
synonyms: polite, well mannered, civil, respectful, well behaved, well bred, well spoken, mannerly; gentlemanly, chivalrous, gallant; gracious, obliging, considerate, pleasant, cordial, urbane, polished, refined, courtly, civilized
"

More or less.
 
Be careful generalizing.

I disagree -- it all falls under the concept of "airmanship". We are talking about decisionmaking and judgment. We are talking about flight discipline.

Well stated.

Unfortunately, this is a topic that non-professional aviation has to struggle with every handful of years; most professional aviation has a set of standards and expectations that come with the job that -- generally -- are followed lest the pilots lose that job.

While the vast number of professionals are well disciplined, stupid can not be trained away. Professionals are not immune to this, so lets not single out "non-professionals" Unfortunately, these two lost more than their jobs.

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR0701.pdf

300C (540F) over the turbine inlet temperature limits.

We really should not let a poorly written, and documented article generate strife.
 
While the vast number of professionals are well disciplined, stupid can not be trained away. Professionals are not immune to this, so lets not single out "non-professionals" Unfortunately, these two lost more than their jobs.

Nowhere did I state or imply such immunity; rather, I wanted to emphasize the nonstandardization of experience, training, and other safety-culture mechanisms that simply don't exist outside a formally organized flying environment.

Not a statement of better or worse.
 
While I haven't had any direct confrontation about flying an RV, I will never forget in 2014 when our group approached Johnson Creek, ID, and announced inbound for landing.

Someone radioed "RV's go home."

We hadn't buzzed the field or anything, we were a few miles out and giving positions as expected.

I'll never forget that. It hung over me a bit the few days we camped there, as we never knew who, or how many, felt that way.
 
An airplane cannot be associated with a pilot. The airplane is a machine that does not think. If Mr. Paine associated RV airplanes as bad in his article, shame on him.
People are discourteous at the grocery store. Does that make them all bad.
People are people and we cannot expect them to change their little minds about a machine.
Carry on
 
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Point Taken

I get the point of the article but the bold generalized statement "Their all like that" dilutes the point. The statement in my opinion is a character flaw. Super cubs have often skimmed along the water with their bushwheels and landed in places with passengers at speeds that would make an RV Pilot question Bernoulli's Principle. To say however, "All Super Cub Pilots are Wreckless" would be just as bold a statement and equally untrue. I think Super Cubs are cool.....just about anything with wings is. Courtesy and common sense is important for sure. I think I know the great event the article refers to and I've never seen an RV there in the past 5 years....and I think that's about how long it's been going. Hmmm.
 
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I disagree -- it all falls under the concept of "airmanship". We are talking about decisionmaking and judgment. We are talking about flight discipline.

Unfortunately, this is a topic that non-professional aviation has to struggle with every handful of years; most professional aviation has a set of standards and expectations that come with the job that -- generally -- are followed lest the pilots lose that job. Unfortunately, in non-professional aviation (e.g. GA flying, amongst other areas), we come from varied backgrounds, with varied levels of training, varied levels of experience, and varied beliefs about levels of what constitutes safe behavior in an airplane. Because of those variations, it is nearly impossible to have a single, understood standard/example of what "normal" behavior is, especially as pilots progress into flying more and more high performance airplanes that are capable of more high performance things.

The warbird community has struggled with this over the years, especially as the "old guard" of former professional military pilots who were the standard-bearers in the warbird community has died off and been replaced by a large number of non-professional pilots whose actual professions afforded them the wealth to own/operate high performance airplanes. Pilots who have not been trained formally or mentored by pilots with experience high performance flying (the same stuff mentioned in the article -- formation, aerobatics, low-level flying) unfortunately sometimes make the decision to have a go at it themselves. Or, alternately, they've been trained and mentored on how to do this stuff, and they still make the decision to engage in risky or illegal behavior anyway because of the laundry list of "hazardous attitudes". There was a point about 5-6 years ago where every single fatal warbird accident that year was a result of pilot error, and most of it from guys saying "watch this!" and doing things that were far riskier than circumstances dictated or were above their heads trying to do something their training or experience could not support. The warbird community continues to struggle with this today, even having self-identified the issue and having taken steps to tighten up their own training and self-enforcement of good decisionmaking.

Either way, it constitutes bad decisionmaking, bad judgment, bad airmanship. Some (most?) pilots strive to learn and achieve excellence in these areas...but some don't. Some just want to go have a thrill, and think that they're good enough to make it work without killing or injuring themselves or others.

In my opinion, if your take-away from the article is that the author is unfairly pointing a finger at RV pilots, then you've gleaned entirely the wrong thing from it. Such an article should, instead, cause us to look at ourselves and our fellow pilots, and examine if we have those same thoughts and behaviors. He's right that no pilot thinks of himself as dangerous, and none of us wake up in the morning and think, "hey, let's go out and do something stupid today!" Often we can't see it from inside the fishbowl -- sometimes it takes us stepping back and examining things from the outside to see these things. Sometimes it takes a friend, a fellow pilot, a mentor, or even a stranger to comment on what they think of your airmanship and judgment for us to realize that we may be slightly off the ranch.

It has to start with each of us wanting to be good airmen and both learning and exhibiting good judgment and decisionmaking. It extends to when we see bad judgment or poor airmanship out of fellow pilots, having the guts to go speak to them about it.

This strikes me as very perceptive post that really gets to the heart of the matter. Its possible to take away more than one thing from the SA article though. I completely agree that we each need to critically examine our own behaviors and those of our fellow pilots (doing the former is much difficult than the latter). No doubt this was the main point. However I also think that singling out specific groups dilutes that message.

Thanks.
 
RV

Ok I'm sorry about making the Super Cub guys mad I didn't know they were still mad its been about 5 years since I took off from Johnson Creek and climbed over the mountain on takeoff. I heard they were so mad they were cussing.Dang I'm so sorry.
Bob
 
Sounds like the article should have been submitted to Psychology Today.
Human nature cannot be changed. We all do stupid things, mindless at times, and those actions that do not kill us enable us to learn. Attaching any of this to a particular airplane is wrong
 
An airplane cannot be associated with a pilot. The airplane is a machine that does not think. If Mr. Paine associated RV airplanes as bad in his article, shame on him.
People are discourteous at the grocery store. Does that make them all bad.
People are people and we cannot expect them to change their little minds about a machine.
Carry on

Correct, but I think you're missing the very next step in the logic train, which is culture.

Culture *does* largely dictate the types of behaviors that are being discussed.

Groups of people (in this case, groups of pilots) who gather together generally have common views about things like good airmanship, and types of aircraft also impact the types of flying that these groups do. The local 172 club probably isn't out teaching each other baby acro or having FFI formation clinics. These groups of mostly like-minded aviators with similar aircraft types and capabilities will tend to develop similar attitudes about things -- that's just natural human social behavior. Weather that's 3 or 4 guys that get together at the local airport on the weekends or up to your local EAA chapter, these social groups have a tremendous impact on pilots ideas about safety or what's acceptable.

Like it or not, the capabilities of RVs lead to certain types of flying that pilots can (and do) perform with them. Just the same that the local moped club probably doesn't get as many speeding tickets as the guys in the local "Fast and Furious" car club.

So, while the type of airplane you own/operate certainly does not dictate a particular type of behavior, the social groups a pilot associates with certainly do influence airmanship. The fact that we're all here on this VAF social group based on a particular type of aircraft is just one small example of that, too.

And, in my opinion, that's exactly the antidote to the hazardous attitudes and poor airmanship the article is alluding to -- social groups that teach and expect good airmanship, and exercise peer pressure to help correct pilots they see whose behavior isn't safe or courteous.
 
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There is nothing new with this thread.

Many none experimental pilots are biased, some experimental pilots are jerks and so are some spam can guys.

Pilot attitude is a factor in some accidents, no question about it.

Changing pilot attitude with warning flags is the challenge. Human nature being what it is, the only thing that works is a big stick. In commercial world threat being fired works. In general aviation threat of certificate action or surviving a crash sometimes works.

Lectures from other pilots usually fall on deaf ears.
 
So, while the type of airplane you own/operate certainly does not dictate a particular type of behavior, the social groups a pilot associates with certainly do influence airmanship.

That's a valid point, for sure. I might take out "social" just for clarity; it can be any group; GA, air carrier, ultralight, or military.

The RJ accident Bill referenced is a good example. The report says investigators heard about an unofficial "41,000 Club" among the airline's pilots. That club probably extended to other carriers too; pilots talk. Despite all of us having had the same motherly advice about jumping off bridges, what our peers do does influence our thinking.

I'll offer another observation. I have observed a significant difference in my own risk tolerance, based on the presence of passengers. I am admittedly less safety conscious when solo, and away from anything that might risk others. When flying kids, for example, I get extremely conservative. When flying with a qualified pilot, I remain more conservative than when solo, but tend to inquire about his/her risk tolerance, and act accordingly.

Yeah, I've thought about it. I can't find much against accepting a level of solo risk beyond what is strictly necessary. I don't mean stupid. I mean managing risk vs reward, leaving an out, gaining an edge, you know, thinking about it before doing it. Then I take the risk. You can't extend skills without pushing limits.

Kids? It just means I'm not a psychopath. Really.

It's the third category where I've gotten in the most trouble. Not with ordinary passengers, for whom I am expected to do all the critical thinking. It's those rides with other pilots. Fact is, the closest to dead has been when flying with the most experienced aviators. It's a variation of the social interaction problem noted above; after all, the other guy is more senior, more experienced. I allowed myself to accept his assessment of risk, when in fact he hadn't actually made any thinking assessment. After a few hard lessons, I stopped paying attention to cockpit seniority, or who owns the airplane, or whatever.

The lesson works both ways. If you fly with me, and you don't like something, say so. I'm good with it.
 
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Interestingly enough, unless you actively cultivate a relationship where someone is comfortable both giving and receiving professional critiques/criticisms, it won't happen naturally.

It generally starts with what Dan said, "hey if you see anything you don't like, speak up", but there has to be a follow up where everyone understands that such statements (even critiques and criticisms) aren't personal.

It takes effort to establish that atmosphere and maintain it.
 
I have been invited to act as a safety pilot for a pilot wishing to do some IFR practice in his RV. Following the flight, we did a good verbal de-brief where I leveled some criticisms on airmanship items, as well as observations on some of the instrument procedures. The conversation was positive, and it started with, "Would you mind if I provide some feedback?" I think we both valued the learning opportunity. As a result of keeping it positive, I have subsequently been invited to do the same thing again.

"Check the ego at the door," is a policy I was taught, way back when, as a means of being open to learning and improving safety. While I still really struggle to follow that advice, it is tremendously rewarding to do so and reap the subsequent benefits.
 
Interesting topic...

Today I took my latest BFR and was not on my most proficient game. Not sloppy but room for improvement. Those who fly a lot, would be well to remember the other pilot you are in proximity of may or may not be on the same page you are. Neither case is good or bad, just different. As a safer pilot I NEVER assume another pilot will do as I expect unless we worked it out beforehand. Case in point, during my flight today, I encountered a student at another airport who was soloing for the first time. I stayed the **** out of his way, (he was already probly nervous enough without my "Help") It worked out well & I was able to offer congratulations after he landed, pretty cool. Fly safe , my friends...:D
 
I have read this thread with some consideration. The general conduct of the RV community and the culture it breeds, specifically in regards to safety, has always been of interest to me. I have been on all sides of this debate - as a "professional" pilot (Navy), as a devil may care ace of the air probably at times viewed as inconsiderate and maybe dangerous, as an instructor tutoring pilot wannabe's, as a more prudent old guy flyer, as a pilot that has done decidely stupid things and lived, and even a few times having been put in danger by actions of other pilots. I thought I should be able to lend some constructive insight and knowledge into the discussion. But it is a very complex issue that goes deep to the core of what it is to be human and be a pilot, very complex stuff indeed.

One of the things that I often go back to, is the realization that a large part of what constitutes a profession, is that professionals set standards for their conduct, and then most importantly, self police their ranks in reference to those standards. In the military or other professions, this policing mechanism is intrinsic and built in. Part of a guy's responsibilities who is more senior to you is to keep you in line when you need it. Very tough to do in the general population of un-ranked RV pilots (or other similarly free form social communities). It is hard to do, but the type of culture that we promote can have some effect in enforcing standards of conduct. This a culture that does not applaud or celebrate or encourage un-safe practices. Like Doug not allowing the posts of videos displaying un-safe flights.

In those occasions where I was subject to danger by the flying practices of others, I have tried to diplomatically address the issues personally with those involved. In pretty much every case those interactions have been constructive and well recieved. What is the worst that can happen - you can be ignored, maybe ridiculed or derided. But that does'nt hurt anybody. In this hobby though, ignoring the issues can hurt - you, or them or their passenger or wing men.

I don't like nannies or crusaders, but I do appreciate good advice considerately delivered. Our community could always stand to be more professional, the price for not trying is too high.
 
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There is a segment of the RV community that may be described as Top Gun Wannabees. Fairly or not, the pilot population at large is annoyed by them. When an RV announces he is "four out for the break," most pilots only know that somebody is about to come banging into the pattern in a way they can't anticipate. The same is true of any number of high-performance airplanes, but the faux military vibe given off by some RV'ers is particularly off-putting.

And this is an argument in favor of some sort of Van's Owners' and Pilots' Association, complete with standardized training.
 
Final note as a person who strings words together for a living. Give authors the benefit of the doubt about their intentions. This is especially true if you have any familiarity with them and there's no reason we shouldn't know Lauran Paine.

He's got your best interests at heart and he's a a good guy.

If you do want to learn more about him, here's two segments I did with him.

http://flyin.airventure.org/radio/clips/2012/lauran-paine-jr-1.mp3
http://flyin.airventure.org/radio/clips/2012/lauran-paine-jr-2.mp3

You also have to understand Lauran's writing style which is to make his points through "people." Every article he writes focuses on an individual that he'll name and tell you about. But it's not necessarily a story about that person per se. It's just his style. His articles are -- as someone once said "peopley". So the fact he made mention of one person with one complaint shouldn't be overthought. That's just his style to get into a topic. He wasn't singling anybody -- or any airplane model -- out.

By the way, you won't regret spending the 15 minutes on each one of those segments. And it ain't because of me. You can get a large measure of the man . I'm a lucky man to have spent some time with him. I'm a lucky man once a month to read him.

So are you.
 
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I've always thought of Lauren Paine as this generation's Gordon Baxter who used to write "Bax Seat" for Flying magazine. Very unassuming, "everyman's aviator" type of person! I, like many folks, have met most of the really famous guys like Bob Hoover, Chuck Yeager, and the like, but one of the highlights for me was meeting Bax way back when. Just your average everyday kind of guy, who was as genuinely nice in person as he was on paper! The sort of individual who valued his encounter with you as much as you valued your encounter with him.

I believe Lauren Paine to be same type of regular guy who is smack dab in the middle of the RV community, as well as others as well. I understand his angst when hearing or seeing stories of immature bravado because someone has some kind of hotshot airplane, and flies it with such inconsideration to others! This is not limited to RVs either!

Of all the people out there qualified to levy some well place criticism amonsgt the RV community, Lauren Paine is the one who is! As a fellow RVer, I'm sure he takes particular issue in being lumped together with the rest of us as reckless, just because we're RVers!

I believe that the far vast majority of pilots in the RV community are considerate, safety conscious, genuinely nice folks, who strive to share their passion in a positive way with others. ....and especially the non-flying community!

I think it should be incumbent on us all to represent our community in a positive light at all times. Be it through proper radio and traffic pattern etiquette, or simply a friendly and warm presence on transient ramps wherever we go, we can go a long ways to improving the RV image.

Plus, just being nice is easy!!
 
I've always thought of Lauren Paine as this generation's Gordon Baxter who used to write "Bax Seat" for Flying magazine. Very unassuming, "everyman's aviator" type of person! I, like many folks, have met most of the really famous guys like Bob Hoover, Chuck Yeager, and the like, but one of the highlights for me was meeting Bax way back when. Just your average everyday kind of guy, who was as genuinely nice in person as he was on paper! The sort of individual who valued his encounter with you as much as you valued your encounter with him.

I believe Lauren Paine to be same type of regular guy who is smack dab in the middle of the RV community, as well as others as well. I understand his angst when hearing or seeing stories of immature bravado because someone has some kind of hotshot airplane, and flies it with such inconsideration to others! This is not limited to RVs either!

Of all the people out there qualified to levy some well place criticism amonsgt the RV community, Lauren Paine is the one who is! As a fellow RVer, I'm sure he takes particular issue in being lumped together with the rest of us as reckless, just because we're RVers!

I believe that the far vast majority of pilots in the RV community are considerate, safety conscious, genuinely nice folks, who strive to share their passion in a positive way with others. ....and especially the non-flying community!

I think it should be incumbent on us all to represent our community in a positive light at all times. Be it through proper radio and traffic pattern etiquette, or simply a friendly and warm presence on transient ramps wherever we go, we can go a long ways to improving the RV image.

Plus, just being nice is easy!!

Anytime the writers name is withheld, I question the validity of the "letter." What I took from the letter is someone has The Slow Airplane Syndrome.
Lauren could've achieved the same goal with his article w/o the non-validated bogus letter generalizing RV's and their pilots. Just my two cents.
 
Anytime the writers name is withheld, I question the validity of the "letter."

Well, your name is withheld. But accusing a right of falsifying content is a terrible allegation to make.

And you guys know Lauran is reading this thread, right? Show some respect to a gentleman who's more than earned it.
 
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He did hear the story.
However I can remember my Grandfather scolding me when I was 8 yrs of age because I made a bold statement about out-of-state drivers. He made sure I understood before I left Elementary School that bold statements that targeted a "group" should not be spoken. Therefore in my thinking, any adult to say "They're all like that" greatly reduces the validity of a statement. As the sharks would say, For that reason I'm out.
 
Well, your name is withheld. But accusing a right of falsifying content is a terrible allegation to make.

And you guys know Lauran is reading this thread, right? Show some respect to a gentleman who's more than earned it.

Too deep Bob and you are reading into it more than I implied. There was no disrespect to him as I greatly enjoy his writings and also understand we all make decisions that other do not agree with. And no, my name is not withheld. Blue skies....
 
He did hear the story.
However I can remember my Grandfather scolding me when I was 8 yrs of age because I made a bold statement about out-of-state drivers. He made sure I understood before I left Elementary School that bold statements that targeted a "group" should not be spoken. Therefore in my thinking, any adult to say "They're all like that" greatly reduces the validity of a statement. As the sharks would say, For that reason I'm out.

The writer of the letter is obviously engaging in hyperbole. That can hardly be in dispute, but it's also irrelevant to the larger point Lauran is making: there's a broad consequence to being a jerk. I'm pretty sure this is also not in dispute.

Forget the RV component. That's not the point of the column and I'm pretty sure if we're capable of building airplanes, we're capable of understanding that and I think we do. Everything beyond that is just social media noise.

Represent.
 
The writer of the letter is obviously engaging in hyperbole. That can hardly be in dispute, but it's also irrelevant to the larger point Lauran is making: there's a broad consequence to being a jerk. I'm pretty sure this is also not in dispute.

Forget the RV component. That's not the point of the column and I'm pretty sure if we're capable of building airplanes, we're capable of understanding that and I think we do. Everything beyond that is just social media noise.

Represent.

The RV component was very pointed. That is why it is of interest to this board. If he'd written that being a jerk pilot is a bad thing and given examples of jerk type behavior without associating it to an aircraft type, everyone would have agreed. Tie it to an aircraft type, particularly when you build the column around a dubious letter claiming events that have not been substantiated, and there's gonna be blowback.

Simple cause and effect, IMO.
 
The RV component was very pointed. That is why it is of interest to this board. If he'd written that being a jerk pilot is a bad thing and given examples of jerk type behavior without associating it to an aircraft type, everyone would have agreed. Tie it to an aircraft type, particularly when you build the column around a dubious letter claiming events that have not been substantiated, and there's gonna be blowback.

Simple cause and effect, IMO.

+1

This is a national magazine, read by many more than just RV pilots. Using the actions of some RV'ers as an example points us out in particular. Agreed it could (should) have been written without singling out a particular aircraft type.
 
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The letter he got was the letter he got. And it's hardly news to any of us that RV pilots as a group have often attained a dubious status thanks to the lunkheads among us. That can hardly be disputed and you only need to go back over the years in VAF (and its father, Yahoogroups) to know that (my favorite part of that thread was when Louise pointed out that almost every pilot she's seen doing something stupid was male). Van, himself, has opined on the company's Facebook page about the hot doggers who ruin the image of people who buy his product.

As Paul Dye so eloquently put it in one such VAF discussion.

We are becoming the "Outlaw Bikers" of the aviation world because of the actions of a few. The only way to stop it is to be BETTER than we have to be - and either correct or shun those who refuse to play nice with others. Or we accept the fact that we will all be painted as outlaws.

Sound familiar? He made that point five years ago.

I think the danger now -- assuming Sport Aviation is full of letters next month from offended RVators -- is that in addition to appearing to be hot rodding jerks, we're going to look like a bunch of thin-skinned weenies .

Maybe we should just take a knee, accept Lauran's message in the spirit it was written and don't fly like jerks. Simple.
 
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The letter he got was the letter he got. And it's hardly news to any of us that RV pilots as a group have often attained a dubious status thanks to the lunkheads among us. That can hardly be disputed and you only need to go back over the years in VAF (and its father, Yahoogroups) to know that (my favorite part of that thread was when Louise pointed out that almost every pilot she's seen doing something stupid was male). Van, himself, has opined on the company's Facebook page about the hot doggers who ruin the image of people who buy his product.

As Paul Dye so eloquently put it in one such VAF discussion.



Sound familiar? He made that point five years ago.

I think the danger now -- assuming Sport Aviation is full of letters next month from offended RVators -- is that in addition to appearing to be hot rodding jerks, we're going to look like a bunch of thin-skinned weenies .

Maybe we should just take a knee, accept Lauran's message in the spirit it was written and don't fly like jerks. Simple.

Very well said Bob!

Skylor
 
The letter he got was the letter he got. And it's hardly news to any of us that RV pilots as a group have often attained a dubious status thanks to the lunkheads among us. That can hardly be disputed and you only need to go back over the years in VAF (and its father, Yahoogroups) to know that (my favorite part of that thread was when Louise pointed out that almost every pilot she's seen doing something stupid was male). Van, himself, has opined on the company's Facebook page about the hot doggers who ruin the image of people who buy his product.

As Paul Dye so eloquently put it in one such VAF discussion.
Quote:
We are becoming the "Outlaw Bikers" of the aviation world because of the actions of a few. The only way to stop it is to be BETTER than we have to be - and either correct or shun those who refuse to play nice with others. Or we accept the fact that we will all be painted as outlaws.



Sound familiar? He made that point five years ago.

I think the danger now -- assuming Sport Aviation is full of letters next month from offended RVators -- is that in addition to appearing to be hot rodding jerks, we're going to look like a bunch of thin-skinned weenies .

Maybe we should just take a knee, accept Lauran's message in the spirit it was written and don't fly like jerks. Simple.

Two thumbs up Bob (with a disclaimer)

As has been discussed in depth here many times in the past, there are many different levels of perception within the aviation community.
Many think that any formation flying, or an overhead break pattern entry, or <fill in the blank> is reckless and uncalled for. Period.
I do not feel that way, but do feel that we need to be sensitive to when and where, and avoid putting others in a position that they feel this way.
And we need to stop the back slapping / encouraging that promotes behavior that is inappropriate at any time.
 
When I initially read this article I was not impressed with the letter included, nor the way it seemed to make up the main body of the message. Being a lousy writer myself I waited to see the reaction of others more skilled than myself. Not surprised at the response at all.

I am relatively new to the RV community. I am just now finishing up my RV8. I read the SA article several times, on different days just to see if my perception of its over all message would change. Unfortunately it did not. publishing the letter targeted at a specific aircraft type was a mistake on any level.

After 48 years of flying and 30,000 hours, it has been my personal experience there are jerks in every type of airplane. No single type or category has ever stood out. Targeting a specific aircraft group/type is simply wrong.

Think of the Long EZ community when John Denver lost his life in that "type" of airplane. Knowledgeable people know that the "type" of aircraft had nothing to do with the crash, but that stigma for the plane, to some degree, still lasts.
 
I will not "TAKE A KNEE" for anything I have not done just because someone has tarnished my image. We are all not guilty of having done something. It is not my place to stop a pilot and say hey dude you know your giving us a bad image,
BS, he is giving himself a bad image not me.
 
I thought the article was well-written and thought provoking. The basic human reaction since the beginning of time is to assume after a few similar encounters that "they're all like that..." whether it's RV pilots, pit bulls, cops, or any other subject that will get a VAF post deleted. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Paine actually wanted his fellow RV pilots to be a little offended by this Cub pilot's opinion. Sometimes being offended is good for us, because it pushes us into thinking and talking about stuff that our egos normally try to push under the rug.
 
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