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Buying a project & FAA

A

AL_O_Dine

Member
What are the rules regarding purchasing a partially completed kit as far as the FAA is concerned?

At what point are you no longer considered the actual "builder?"

For example, you buy a Vans RV9 kit where the guy completed the wings and most of the fuselage.

Can you claim yourself as "the manufacturer" still?

Or is it just a big gray area?

This is for builders in the US.
 
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Multiple builders

Not grey at all.

You can have a string of builders as long as the project meets the 51% rule. Even projects almost ready for inspection can be bought and completed by you. Be sure to get all records and previous photos, receipts, builder's logs, etc
 
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Vern said:
Not grey at all.

You can have a string of builders as long as you meet the 51% rule. Even projects almost ready for inspection can be bought and completed by you. Be sure to get all records and previous photos, receipts, builder's logs, etc
Click to expand...

To be clear, it's the airplane that has to meet the 51% rule, not "you". If 15,000 individual amateur builders each drive one rivet in an airplane, the airplane can still qualifiy for an airworthiness certificate in the Experimental Amateur Built category. None of those builders however would be qualified to do a condition inspection on it(assuming they don't hold an A&P or IA).
 
longranger said:
To be clear, it's the airplane that has to meet the 51% rule, not "you". If 15,000 individual amateur builders each drive one rivet in an airplane, the airplane can still qualifiy for an airworthiness certificate in the Experimental Amateur Built category. None of those builders however would be qualified to do a condition inspection on it(assuming they don't hold an A&P or IA).
Click to expand...

So then the question is, are you only entitled to the repairman certification if you did the entire project?
 
The answer to this question, about the Repairman certificate, is that it varies from FSDO to FSDO. They will want to see that you have "substantial" knowledge about the inner workings of the plane, and that you participated in a reasonable amount of the work. For example, if a group of 5 built it, from start to finish, the group must choose one person to receive the Repairman certificate. The FAA will definitely not issue more than one. In the case of a substantially built project, you will get varying responses, depending on where you live. Call the FSDO.
 
Repairman Cert

BobTurner said:
The answer to this question, about the Repairman certificate, is that it varies from FSDO to FSDO. They will want to see that you have "substantial" knowledge about the inner workings of the plane, and that you participated in a reasonable amount of the work. For example, if a group of 5 built it, from start to finish, the group must choose one person to receive the Repairman certificate. The FAA will definitely not issue more than one. In the case of a substantially built project, you will get varying responses, depending on where you live. Call the FSDO.
Click to expand...

Or I guess, it depends on how deep your wallet is for some. Here is an interesting post from William Wynne about days gone by and signing off on airworthiness applications. You can read the full post on his fly corvair site. It is in the January 13 section. Search for the words "hired gun" and that will take you to the referenced section.

I quote from it......"While it isn?t right, keep in mind that there is absolutely nothing illegal about professionally building planes or paying magazine editors to write lies about them. The only actual crime in the system was the owners signing the FAA airworthyness application and claiming it wasn?t built for hire. The form said the fine was up to $10K for making a false statement. When you understand what a trivial amount of money that was to these people you understand why they all signed it. Plus, in all the years of thousands of people lying through their teeth to DARs, no one ever got turned in. Part of the reason for this was the DARs made so much money, they of all people were never going to blow the whistle on anyone. The only thing that ever slowed the system down was Mooney, who couldn?t sell planes, started making a lot of noise about the FAA not enforcing the rules. The got an advisory circular published, but all Mooney had on their side was being right, they didn?t bring any pay off money, and that was what the system operated on.".................
 
AL_O_Dine said:
Or I guess, it depends on how deep your wallet is for some. Here is an interesting post from William Wynne about days gone by and signing off on airworthiness applications. You can read the full post on his fly corvair site. It is in the January 13 section. Search for the words "hired gun" and that will take you to the referenced section.

I quote from it......"While it isn?t right, keep in mind that there is absolutely nothing illegal about professionally building planes or paying magazine editors to write lies about them. The only actual crime in the system was the owners signing the FAA airworthyness application and claiming it wasn?t built for hire. The form said the fine was up to $10K for making a false statement. When you understand what a trivial amount of money that was to these people you understand why they all signed it. Plus, in all the years of thousands of people lying through their teeth to DARs, no one ever got turned in. Part of the reason for this was the DARs made so much money, they of all people were never going to blow the whistle on anyone. The only thing that ever slowed the system down was Mooney, who couldn?t sell planes, started making a lot of noise about the FAA not enforcing the rules. The got an advisory circular published, but all Mooney had on their side was being right, they didn?t bring any pay off money, and that was what the system operated on.".................
Click to expand...

Well, guess posting a message like this is one way to develop a warm fuzzy relationship with your local DAR/FSDO........ ;)

Good luck getting the repairman's certificate. :D
 
Actually the 51% rule is for the aircraft itself. It must be 51% amateur-built.

The requirement for the repairman certificate is only to be a "principal builder" and convince the FAA that you have sufficient knowledge to adequately conduct the condition inspection.

This IS the rule and should not vary between FSDOs.
 
AL_O_Dine said:
So then the question is, are you only entitled to the repairman certification if you did the entire project?
Click to expand...

IF the aircraft was built by 15,000 individuals, the "FAA would let the Most Knowledgeable individual become the repairman as long as he can satisfy their inspector that he or she can keep the aircraft in a condition for Safe Operation."

I was told this in an FAA Training class in Oklahoma City last month.
 
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rebuilding a finished plane

I bought a -4 that was damaged by a hangar collapse. I order to make it airworthy again it requires an extensive tear-down and rebuild. If you re-build 51% of a plane that has already received an airworthy cert. and has been flying the past 23 years can the new owner obtain a repairman cert? It was basically tore down to the quick-build stage.
 
No! Rebuilding and/or repair does not count toward the "major portion" rule.
And, only one person may hold the repairman certificate for any one amateur-built aircraft.
 
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