|
-
POSTING RULES

-
Donate yearly (please).
-
Advertise in here!
-
Today's Posts
|
Insert Pics
|

06-30-2015, 07:04 AM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Aurora, OR
Posts: 843
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmartingt
We need position sensing accurate and reliable enough to guide airliners on IFR approaches to parallel runways at Class B airports just to be able to operate a day VFR airplane 25 miles away from that airport?
It probably never occurred to them, even for the briefest moment, that not every airplane operates under positive ATC control, that not every airplane is supported by a King Air class maintenance budget, that not all traffic is IFR. The operational environment of light VFR airplanes, as compared to IFR operations ...
|
Actually it did occur to them. With few exceptions, if you are not required to use a Mode C transponder in the airspace you occupy today, you're not required to operate with ADS-B out in that airspace in 2020.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-201...-sec91-225.pdf
__________________
Greg Hughes - Van's Aircraft - Community, Media, Marketing
Van's web site | Instagram | Facebook
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Building RV-8A since Sept 2014 (N88VX reserved)
Dual AFS 5600, Avidyne IFD 440, Whirlwind 74RV, Superior XP IO-360
VAF build thread - Flickr photo album - Project Facebook page
Aurora, OR (EAA Chapter 105)
|

06-30-2015, 08:54 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 38
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by jclark
If you were not planning to install "ADS-B OUT" at this time, as I see it, you will STILL be able to get the same services and thus you might want to reconsider (and keep) your Pathfinder + Nexus.
The way I read it is that the FAA is simply saying
"OK folks, I know you have been using various handheld (and other) GPSes as position sources to "wake up" the system and have you look semi "legit" and thereby get full weather and traffic all the time. That is going to end as we get closer and we need to just work the system with the "approved" types of position sources. You will continue to get weather as promised on your ADS-B IN system but you will not get traffic unless a *nearby* "legit position source equipped" client wakes up the system".
So, in reality, it is like Brantel (I believe) said ... the "free lunch" (use of something like a 396 as position source) is coming to an end.
TO put things into perspective though, if you are in a HIGH DENSITY trsffice area, there is PROBABLY someone around with a "legit" position source that will hae the system "awakened" for you. On the other hand if you are not, that "same altitude, opposite direction" aircraft is not going to show up on your WingX/Foreflight/Garmin Pilot.
By the way, I did a bunch of testing of ADS-B stuff a while back and used 396/496 as postion sources and that was great! But I have since changed to 400W and GTN 650 as position sources and can see their point about the reliability/credibility/validity of the position source data.
|
Thanks for the insight. I don't fly in really congested airspace and weather is my top priority. I'll reconsider after some more research and clarification.
Don
__________________
Don Thompson
Tallahassee, FL
Hangar D-3 Quincy, FL (2J9)
N726DT RV 6 Flying
N4493J '67 Cherokee 140 sold
N2120J '78 Warrior II owned twice, sold twice
2017 Dues Paid
|

06-30-2015, 09:16 AM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 1,029
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by greghughespdx
Actually it did occur to them. With few exceptions, if you are not required to use a Mode C transponder in the airspace you occupy today, you're not required to operate with ADS-B out in that airspace in 2020.
|
That doesn't show that they really put consideration into the decision; it only shows that someone saw a convenient line on the map and an already-existing rule they could adopt. It's the answer to the question "how can we describe the places where airliners and other heavy, fast IFR traffic operate?"
Again, the NASA/FAA concept of a "small airplane" is this:
not this:
<tinfoil>One might be forgiven for thinking that requiring TSO level GPS performance for ADS-B Out in light aircraft was a play to drive those pesky little airplanes out of the way of the turbine traffic that really deserves to be using that airspace</tinfoil>
__________________
RV-7ER - finishing kit and systems installation
There are two kinds of fool in the world. The first says "this is old, and therefore good"; the second says "this is new, and therefore better".
|

06-30-2015, 09:58 AM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Garden City, Tx
Posts: 5,145
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmartingt
<tinfoil>One might be forgiven for thinking that requiring TSO level GPS performance for ADS-B Out in light aircraft was a play to drive those pesky little airplanes out of the way of the turbine traffic that really deserves to be using that airspace</tinfoil>
|
<tinfoil> Or for thinking that it's preparatory to implementing user fees by miles flown using ADSB as a tracking/billing service </tinfoil>
__________________
Greg Niehues - SEL, IFR, Repairman Cert.
Garden City, TX VAF 2020 dues paid 
N16GN flying 700 hrs and counting; IO360, SDS, WWRV200, Dynon HDX, 430W
Built an off-plan RV9A with too much fuel and too much HP. Should drop dead any minute now.
|

06-30-2015, 10:40 AM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,887
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkW
"This is all about better ATC density in terminal environments. In other words, primarily Part 121 operations and high end GA operations (biz jets, king airs, etc.) that are the majority users of Class B terminal airpots."
It is the FAA's plan to provide separation using ADS-B. This would be the reason for us having to use "Accepted Equipment". Allowing everyone to use Non-accepted equipment or position source is not a good way to provide separation.
They/we need to trust your reported position.
|
Wait, when we fly VFR isn't "See and Avoid" still the reg of airways?
If so, then having even a slightly off position report shouldn't be an issue.
However, if you are going to fly IFR, then you should need a "certified" nav source.
Why is the FAA pushing VFR aircraft to have high dollar position sources installed. Not to mention that aircraft with no electrical systems can fly where we can't. That makes no sense to me at all!
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
|

06-30-2015, 12:26 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,967
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR
Wait, when we fly VFR isn't "See and Avoid" still the reg of airways?
If so, then having even a slightly off position report shouldn't be an issue.
However, if you are going to fly IFR, then you should need a "certified" nav source.
Why is the FAA pushing VFR aircraft to have high dollar position sources installed. Not to mention that aircraft with no electrical systems can fly where we can't. That makes no sense to me at all!
|
If we're being really pessimistic, maybe VFR itself has an "end date" in the eyes of the FAA...
|

06-30-2015, 01:03 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 6,797
|
|
I think rmarting got it exactly right. The desk chair TSO writers were allowed to go overboard. (What if ABC resistor company in China realizes it sent out a bad part? How will we contact that owner? (thus is actually covered in the rules!!)).
How can we automate traffic separation on taxiways, so a giant Airbus won't clip wings with someone on an adjacent taxiway? (that's why you will broadcast your wingspan). Everything they could dream up went into the rules. No cost is too high, especially when someone else is paying it.
BTW, if you want to see the future: there's lots of talk of all the airspace where ADSB is not required. But how many aircraft do you know that do not have a mode C installed? It's just too inconvenient not to have it. Ever file ifr without a transponder? What a hassle. Fly thru a vip TFR area without one? Not allowed. Remember, this is all for the airlines. That's why you still need a transponder with a UAT, and will always need one, even if the FAA discontinues its expensive radar. It's so airliners can see you on TCAS.
I think it's a done deal, almost everyone will need ADSB-out. Best hope is for some relief on the cost.
|

06-30-2015, 01:07 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,887
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner
.... That's why you still need a transponder with a UAT, and will always need one, even if the FAA discontinues its expensive radar. It's so airliners can see you on TCAS.
I think it's a done deal, almost everyone will need ADSB-out. Best hope is for some relief on the cost.
|
What is the FAA going to do about all those J3's, Champ's, T-Craft's, etc. that don't have an electrical system and can't do any kind of XXXX-out? How are they going to keep the drones from hitting one?
Whoever wrote these rules must have moved over from the EPA as they seem really good at writing regulations that simply don't work.
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
|

06-30-2015, 01:16 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
|
|
Drones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR
Wait, when we fly VFR isn't "See and Avoid" still the reg of airways?
If so, then having even a slightly off position report shouldn't be an issue.
However, if you are going to fly IFR, then you should need a "certified" nav source.
Why is the FAA pushing VFR aircraft to have high dollar position sources installed. Not to mention that aircraft with no electrical systems can fly where we can't. That makes no sense to me at all!
|
I think it's the start of a move to allow unmanned drones, operated out of sight of a controller, in general airspace. Just look at all of the articles coming out in general, not aviation, sources on future drone use.
The drone computers will need precise locations to avoid manned traffic.
How will Amazon deliver your package if you live next to a GA airport? 
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
|

06-30-2015, 01:47 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Houston
Posts: 2,012
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR
What is the FAA going to do about all those J3's, Champ's, T-Craft's, etc. that don't have an electrical system and can't do any kind of XXXX-out? How are they going to keep the drones from hitting one?
Whoever wrote these rules must have moved over from the EPA as they seem really good at writing regulations that simply don't work.
|
Typical FAA employee: "What's a "J-3", or a "Champ??"
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:59 AM.
|