Free airspace

[jmvolpp]

Thanks for all the insight from both sides of the fence.

Mike V.

[rleffler]

While it's not illegal to fly through a MOA, it's probably not advisable if the MOA is hot.

If the MOA is for a UPT base or any the other more advanced training base think of what may be going on within the MOA. Imagine an UPT student pilot in a T-38. You think there might be issues with that student pilot keeping his head in front of the aircraft and him keeping track of a GA pilot blindly flying through a MOA?

Like it has already been mentioned, controllers will advise if the MOA is hot. I just flew through Mississippi this weekend in which most of the eastern part of the state is covered by a MOA. You may not be able to fly a straight line, but there is usually a path through the area. I was fortunate this time in that all the MOAs were cold, so taking a straight line approach wasn't an issue.

Most of the bases bend over backwards to maintain a positive relationship with GA. Most publish procedures and advice for GA pilots flying in the vicinity of the training bases. They also publish incident reports of near misses and accidents. After reading them, you may think twice before flying through a hot MOA.

[spatsch]

Originally Posted by craigw85

So you may actually be surprised to find out, but we do not have TCAS in the F-18 so we rely on air traffic control to let us know when someone comes into the MOA and our air to air radar.

Would you guys show up on ADS-B or TIS? I am pretty sure the controller providing flight following has less time to look out for me then I do so having you show up on my map would be really usefull.

[ChiefPilot]

Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry

Here's a timely reminder, then, that the MOA's just west of Oshkosh WILL be active during AirVenture this year. Plan accordingly.

Big war games planned that week.

Good grief. I hope the powers that be planned to have a lot of "knock it off" calls during this time. This is one time I wouldn't blame GA pilots a bit for flying through a hot MOA.

[fixnflyguy]

North Carolina is covered with Military activity, and plenty of MOA's/Restricted airspace. I traveled from central NC to the outer banks region of Cape Hatteras this past weekend, and even with the miles of open water ,MOA's and restricted zones with names like "Giant Killer", the trip was awesome. You just have to be willing to call the bases and find out what's active and not... Seymour Johnson ,New River MCAS and Cherry Point MCAS will give good intell on any activity, and we had no issues at all. Anyone who travels to First Flight or up/down the Carolina coast can be very intimidated the first time you glance at a sectional.

[sahrens]

I have flown on both sides; military (over 30 years) and civil. I believe it is important to remember that MOAs are see and avoid airspace. The military and civil users are both responsible for avoidance. Just because an MOA is active does not mean it is in use. Schedules change and training flights get completed or cancelled; the MOA might still be active.

If you are worried about running into military aircraft then you better add IRs and VRs to your list of concerns. I would imagine most folks fly across them without knowing if they are scheduled for use or looking for low level high speed aircraft. And these routes, for the most part, are NOT in any SUA.

Use good diligence, check for activity and talk to flight following; but I would not just add hundreds of miles to a flight to completely avoid the area. That is why we (the military) have restricted areas; so we can exclude other traffic.

Just my two cents.

[Ironflight]

Originally Posted by sahrens

Use good diligence, check for activity and talk to flight following; but I would not just add hundreds of miles to a flight to completely avoid the area. That is why we (the military) have restricted areas; so we can exclude other traffic.

Absolutely concur - a good and concise summation of how we fly out here in the mountainous west. We share MOA's, and we (GA) leave the restricted airspace to those who own it. Avoiding all MOA airspace is impractical when you look at the size of some areas, and can be dangerous if you look at where that puts you in relation to mountains and other really bad places.

And the military is even glad to share many of the restricted areas - on the weekends, it is easy to get cleared right across the Edwards Complex and get good views of Muroc and China Lake.

Amazingly, the airspace rules were designed with flexibility in mind - so blanket assumptions about staying out of certain types and areas give up freedoms that we can safely exercise.

This topic gets debated regularly here and on other forums - I am glad to have earned something new this time around - the 5,000' AGL hard deck is a good reference number!

Paul

[Flying again!]

Hope the links work.

Below are 2 links, one to the Sheppard AFB Share the Air pamphlet that has a lot of good information regarding TCAS in UPT aircraft, low level routes etc. The message is to always use your transponder. I know pilots here that turn off their transponders as soon as they are out of the Mode C veil -- never understood why you want to limit the ability of people to see you

The 2nd link is from the Eglin AFB Flying Club and has information on how to fly in and around the Eglin AFB airspace.

Most bases have similar information if you go to their websites.


http://www.sheppard.af.mil/shared/me...120221-059.pdf

http://www.eglinaeroclub.com/Documen...-Jan-2012.aspx

[Echo Tango]

Originally Posted by flightlogic

Interesting to hear from both sides of the airspace users in this thread. We rarely get to hear what the situation is like from the fighter side. I am surrounded by MOA airspace in Arizona and I commute to California for work in the RV. So, I and many like me, have been transiting MOA's for over forty years.
Two observations.... as mentioned, I have been dropped from flight following while entering a hot MOA at times. The controller does not seem interested in being part of the chain of liability. Can't say I blame them. When they call normal traffic 12 o'clock three miles opposite direction, it is probably on a steady course. A "dynamic" fighter is so unpredictable... that the controller would be almost unable to help. BTW, I have never heard a controller mention the stuff on his scope maneuvering "dynamically". I suspect the term resides mostly in the fighter pilot community. The controllers do refer to RV's and others as FLIBS. I will let you look that one up since this is a family site.
I like to think of myself as a cautious pilot, but can't see any way I could get any use out of my plane by going around every active MOA. I already put many miles on circling the Restricted areas in California. And they are hot almost permanently in recent years. I do find some comfort in the fact that the F-18 or F-16 driver is probably the most highly "tuned" aviator on the planet and in command of the most sophisticated flying machine ever dreamed up. If my little RV ever appeared suddenly in his windscreen, a slight flick of the wrist and he (or she) would whistle past me... and I would have a hangar story to tell. I can't remember any reports of a midair where I travel. And there are many thousands of VFR transits through the active military airspace. I give the most credit for this safety record to the fighter pilots themselves. And I am proud this Memorial day to remember those who came before.

I've never had to deal with MOAs but you're correct in that a traffic call would be difficult. The planes are moving too fast and the radar honestly can't keep up (and I use some of the best radar in the country). All I'm going to see is an intermittent return jumping all over with XXX in the altitude block. Just what I've observed watching air shows from a radar scope.

[rvbuilder2002]

Originally Posted by sahrens

I have flown on both sides; military (over 30 years) and civil. I believe it is important to remember that MOAs are see and avoid airspace. The military and civil users are both responsible for avoidance. Just because an MOA is active does not mean it is in use. Schedules change and training flights get completed or cancelled; the MOA might still be active.

If you are worried about running into military aircraft then you better add IRs and VRs to your list of concerns. I would imagine most folks fly across them without knowing if they are scheduled for use or looking for low level high speed aircraft. And these routes, for the most part, are NOT in any SUA.

Use good diligence, check for activity and talk to flight following; but I would not just add hundreds of miles to a flight to completely avoid the area. That is why we (the military) have restricted areas; so we can exclude other traffic.

Just my two cents.

Originally Posted by Ironflight

Absolutely concur - a good and concise summation of how we fly out here in the mountainous west. We share MOA's, and we (GA) leave the restricted airspace to those who own it. Avoiding all MOA airspace is impractical when you look at the size of some areas, and can be dangerous if you look at where that puts you in relation to mountains and other really bad places.

And the military is even glad to share many of the restricted areas - on the weekends, it is easy to get cleared right across the Edwards Complex and get good views of Muroc and China Lake.

Amazingly, the airspace rules were designed with flexibility in mind - so blanket assumptions about staying out of certain types and areas give up freedoms that we can safely exercise.

This topic gets debated regularly here and on other forums - I am glad to have earned something new this time around - the 5,000' AGL hard deck is a good reference number!

Paul

These 2 posts (IMHO) do an excellent job of summing up the entire discussion. The high deserts of the S.W. are full of MOA's, low altitude training routes and restricted areas. With proper (non complicated) procedures it is possible to safely fly through all of them (though I have never been granted entry to Restricted Area 51 ) )