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  #21  
Old 05-19-2015, 04:03 PM
EarthX Lithium EarthX Lithium is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Windsor, CO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krw5927 View Post
A previous poster pointed out that, at least for lead-acid technology, this isn't exactly the case. It's overly simplistic to say that drawing 6 amps over 2 hours is the same as drawing 24 amps over 30 minutes. As an example, given the same start and end voltages (discharge to 10.02V under load), Odyssey quotes 21.6A for 30 minutes or 6.9A over two hours. So the 30-minute capacity is 10.8AH (or better yet 118.2WH, as output voltage changes over discharge time) whereas the 2 hour capacity is 13.8AH (157.2WH). In other words, the faster you draw energy out, the less total work the battery can do.

This difference is important, and we'd like to understand what the curve looks like for competitor batteries. Is this data something you already have, or could your company run these tests and publish the results?

(Oh, and to clarify, I didn't intend to imply you didn't like Odyssey. I had simply intended to say that, regardless of whether it is or isn't the best way to characterize a battery, Odyssey's data was published quite some time ago. We're familiar with it. So any newcomers to this market will be compared to the incumbent, and for an easy comparison the data should be presented in a similar format. Sorry for the mis-communication! )
We do have this data, it is in our manual on the website and for a lithium battery, it is that simplistic. Just at the Odyssey has discharge curves, so do we. As you will note, the discharge curve is very different. Also, many of the questions that are being asked in this thread have been addressed in our manual as well.

And I would like to send out a thank you to all of you that have called me today to express your "concerns" about how some of the responders seem a bit too harsh. Many of you I have had the pleasure of meeting in person and over the years of you using the batteries, we have built up a relationship which is one of the great joys of my job. I am but one person at EarthX and I am not the engineering department. And quite frankly, this is why manufacturers do not attempt to participate in a public forum such as this as there will always be negative people that believe companies are only out to "get" the consumer. We do understand. We look forward to over the years winning your respect and trust and for some it will take time, and that is OK!

Kathy
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  #22  
Old 05-19-2015, 06:06 PM
enielsen enielsen is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EarthX Lithium View Post
And I would like to send out a thank you to all of you that have called me today to express your "concerns" about how some of the responders seem a bit too harsh. Many of you I have had the pleasure of meeting in person and over the years of you using the batteries, we have built up a relationship which is one of the great joys of my job. I am but one person at EarthX and I am not the engineering department. And quite frankly, this is why manufacturers do not attempt to participate in a public forum such as this as there will always be negative people that believe companies are only out to "get" the consumer. We do understand. We look forward to over the years winning your respect and trust and for some it will take time, and that is OK!

Kathy
He he... I won't call but will post right here. This is one of the most civilized forums on the web today. I could name at least 10 in the car, boat, ROTARY subjects that are like running a gauntlet of egos and misinformation.

Thanks to the host Doug Reeves and the admins for keeping us in line.

[Oh yea... you might want to consider advertising on this site. That way, I'll remember you when it's time to buy my battery. ] edit*** I see you in the side bar already... looking forward to your advancements!

Cheers.
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Last edited by enielsen : 05-19-2015 at 06:08 PM. Reason: saw earthx ad just as I hit submit.
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  #23  
Old 05-19-2015, 06:29 PM
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RV7Guy RV7Guy is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Chandler, AZ
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Default 2 angles of marketing

Lets say we are all on board with the LiFePo technology. There are two areas for marketing as I see it.

1) Those that are flying and are using the PC680.

2) Those who are building and desire to take advantage of the smaller sized battery 36C and 36D.

So, if I were the marketing arm of EarthX, here would be my methodology.

Obviously, you are well along in the development of a drop in replacement for the 680. This is very important and covers those already flying.

Now, I would design a battery box that fits the 36C and the 36D. Get a battery box kit from Van's. Use it to design a battery box for the 36C and 36D. Done.

Now you've got those flying and using a 680 and those building who want to save firewall space with the smaller batteries.
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  #24  
Old 05-20-2015, 08:02 AM
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Jetguy Jetguy is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Texas, Fort Worth
Posts: 1,237
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Another suggestion I have that would work well wining over customers here is to select 10 frequent posters on this form with different type RVs who fly lots and give them one of your batteries for field trials. As well as advertise on this web site, when selecting RVers think different type missions. For example training, aerobatics, racing, lots of daily x-countries,(think Vlad) etc. Another factor to consider is climate they operate in. In Texas we operate in 100F plus during the summer! Then ask them to post their findings on the form. Consider giving some batteries to Vans Aircraft, their demonstrators fly continuously. Good luck and keep us up to date on how testing goes.
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Last edited by Jetguy : 05-20-2015 at 08:07 AM.
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  #25  
Old 05-20-2015, 08:18 AM
David Paule David Paule is offline
 
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Location: Boulder, CO
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That's not a bad idea, offering a battery box kit. Since the perceived hazard is fire, I'd prefer that the battery box be sealed and vented and fabricated of stainless steel.

Dave
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  #26  
Old 05-20-2015, 10:39 AM
EarthX Lithium EarthX Lithium is offline
 
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Location: Windsor, CO
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Dear Vans Forum users,

Besides this dialog, many of you also send direct emails with questions as well and I would like to try and address some common questions. Many of you want to know if the replacement will be an EXACT plug and play replacement for the PC680. The answer is no.

Here are some ?issues? with an EXACT replacement. The PC680 is actually tapered in its width, the widest at the top (80mm) and then it gets skinnier at the bottom (76.3mm) and they have a completely different profile of the top of their battery as well. Actually, all lead acid batteries are designed with the ?cup? type tapering whereas a lithium is not. We are the same width from top to bottom.

Our new case dimension will be 166mm (L) x 80mm (W) x 170mm (H) .
The PC680 dimensions are 181.5mm (L) x 76.3mm (W) x 167.8mm (H).

The new EarthX case size fits in all the existing battery box type holders with a minimum of adjustments. As you know, there are many different aftermarket manufacturers and options out there.

Then questions about vibration issues,-- it is a powder type substance inside the case with no vibration issues, unlike any lead acid battery, you will have lead plates that can and do vibrate. This is not an issue for a lithium.

Temperature: the PC680 is rated at -40C to 45C and our battery is rated at -30C to 60C. We are not quite as good in cold but higher ratings for hot.

It is becoming very clear to us that consumers want a turnkey solution and offering battery boxes is a necessity. We have been working towards this and have aluminum and titanium prototypes now but have not made any final decisions on a manufacturer of these boxes as of yet.


Not sure about a steel box as it is heavy and not structurally needed to hold in place a 3.9 pound battery. (The melting point of titanium is 1,668 deg C, aluminum is 660.3 deg C, and steel is 1,510 deg C. )

Thanks again all of you!

Kathy (sales@earthxmotorsports.com)
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  #27  
Old 05-20-2015, 11:19 AM
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kbehrent kbehrent is offline
 
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Location: Puget Sound Area, WA
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I've hesitated in switching due to couple of factors, with the main one being that I didn't want to build a custom box to replace the PC680. I want the ability to quickly drop in a PC680 in the field should I be forced to replace the battery if traveling or away from my home field.

My other concern(s) deal with the operating state of the battery. The PC680 is simple, proven and a durable battery that requires little monitoring other than voltage. For me to feel more comfortable with these newer technology batteries, I would like to monitoring the battery in more detail.

So, here are a couple of suggestions that may help relieve some of my concerns on the operating status of the battery:

1) Add a built-in temp sensor to the battery pack. Most EFIS vendors have one or more spare temp sensor inputs that are configurable that could be used to display this data. I would like to monitor the internal core temp of the battery and let my EFIS alert me if the temps are either too high or too low based upon EarthX suggested operating range. Yes, I know I could add a external surface mounted temp sensor, but that would not be as accurate as an internal core temp.

2) Add a annunciator signal line. This could be used with/with out a EFIS. It would be a simple signal wire that your circuitry would ground when a "caution" condition is detected within your circuit logic. This could drive a annunciator light or as a input to a EFIS to raise an alarm on the screen.

Maybe in the more distant future, partnering with the EFIS vendors to develop a protocol for communicating the state of the battery, possibly at each cell level would help visually monitoring the usage and health of the battery and possibly help spot gradual degradation of the battery or unusual operating characteristics.
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Last edited by kbehrent : 05-20-2015 at 11:22 AM.
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  #28  
Old 05-20-2015, 11:42 AM
EarthX Lithium EarthX Lithium is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Windsor, CO
Posts: 257
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[quote=kbehrent;984323]
"1) Add a built-in temp sensor to the battery pack."
"2) Add a annunciator signal line."

Thank you for this and both of these items are being designed, engineered and tested for future models. We have been working on a certified battery but this process is very lengthy, time consuming, and EXPENSIVE. There is only one company out there right now that does have a certified lithium iron phosphate battery and the starting price is $4,000.


Kathy
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  #29  
Old 05-20-2015, 02:27 PM
krw5927 krw5927 is offline
 
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Location: Wichita, KS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EarthX Lithium View Post
It is becoming very clear to us that consumers want a turnkey solution and offering battery boxes is a necessity. We have been working towards this and have aluminum and titanium prototypes now but have not made any final decisions on a manufacturer of these boxes as of yet.

Not sure about a steel box as it is heavy and not structurally needed to hold in place a 3.9 pound battery. (The melting point of titanium is 1,668 deg C, aluminum is 660.3 deg C, and steel is 1,510 deg C. )

Kathy (sales@earthxmotorsports.com)
An aluminum box could be a really good choice for those folks putting the battery box inside their fuselage. Glad to see this option.

A titanium box, while lightweight and strong, will be susceptible to embrittlement and stress corrosion cracking where in contact with cadmium-plated bolts used to mount the battery box. Not difficult to mitigate, but worthwhile. Stainless steel hardware and explicit mounting instructions might be one option.

A lightweight steel box is friendly with cadmium-plated fasteners and the firewall material, and can survive a fire on the hot side of the firewall.
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  #30  
Old 05-21-2015, 07:46 AM
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Gaylon Gaylon is offline
 
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Location: Friendswood, TX
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Default New Battery....

Kathy,
It is great to hear of the redesigns for a drop in replacement battery (PC680) and considerations in design incorporation of sensors plus battery mount/cases.

I guess you might call me a future repeat customer, sort of since, I did own two of your battery's about one year ago but then sent them back because I did not have the time to redesign the battery box to accommodate the batteries I purchased for the RV10. The repeat customer portion will soon occur... your phone will ring again with the release of the 3 new batteries I am very sure.

When might the sensor technology be released? You mentioned it in a prior thread but I wast sure if this meant the latest battery release coming in a month or future time frame.
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