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05-05-2015, 01:30 PM
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pocahontas MS
Posts: 3,884
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Buying a plane (especially an older, certified plane) is a process closer to buying a house than buying a car. If you've never done it before and/or don't have a really good idea of what to look for, hire a professional (yours; not the seller's) to do a pre-buy inspection that approaches the level of an annual inspection.
Mike Busch did a recent article on how to do a pre-buy.
Charlie
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05-05-2015, 01:30 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Delaware, OH (KDLZ)
Posts: 4,196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exsterminator
I agree, some good general ownership info.
Can people please explain why the lure of a super old Cherokee/172 for $50,000 is stronger than an RV at same price? What am I missing? Is it the concern over the previous Vans owners' build quality?
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The first thing to come to mind is cost of insurance for a pilot with no or minimal hours. The next would be the gear. Can our RVs take the abuse as a primary trainer? I suspect that there is no universal answer to that question.
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05-05-2015, 01:49 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 963
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You need to have a pre-buy inspection done for your own safety by your own agent. This involves looking at the most expensive part of your aircraft, the engine. This will probably take an A&P. Don't stop looking. It isn't often that the first one that pops up is the one that you buy.
Join the owners club/org for that model. Ask for a recommendations on who to do a pre-buy in that area. This person will be your agent, working for you. Their job is to let you know the truth of what is being offered for sale. Be ready to hire someone that does know what they're doing. If that person is not local you'll need to fly them and their tools to that location. Listen to what they say. If nothing else they may give you reasons to not offer the asking price or even walk away. If things need to be done, you want to know what they are before you buy. Even then you may end up with a surprise down the road. Its the nature of the beast, but give yourself the edge before you jump. One persons 7 rating on an interior or exterior can be another persons disaster or even a 10. You never know until you have it looked at by a pro and see it yourself. Be ready to put aside some dollars for things you find.
Check out the AOPA and join them. They have vref which can tell you what the plane is worth (assuming you know everything going in).
Google 'piper cherokee owners' and see where it takes you. Buying a plane is nothing like buying a car.
I went through this exercise, and even though I could have afforded to make all the payments for everything, the up front costs dipped into my reserve too much. Thinking about everything, buying an older plane with old engine, radios and avionics I decided to just bite the bullet and build an RV-12.
Bob
__________________
Bob Hassel
NM
Subscription Paid for 2020
Home is where the hanger is...
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05-05-2015, 02:00 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Richmond Hill, GA (KLHW)
Posts: 2,189
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I did exactly what you are proposing and now have my 1966 Cherokee for sale on Barnstormers.
I also leased the bird back to the flight school to help offset costs but there are pros and cons to that plan. The plane makes money but you may be hit with unexpected repair bills.
Being an A&P helps as well.
Shoot me a PM and we can talk about the whole process, costs, etc.
__________________
Ray
RV-7A - Slider - N495KL - First flt 27 Jan 17
O-360-A4M w/ AFP FM-150 FI, Dual PMags, Vetterman Trombone Exh, SkyTech starter, BandC Alt (PP failed after 226 hrs)
Catto 3 blade NLE, FlightLines Interior, James cowl, plenum & intake, Anti-Splat -14 seat mod and nose gear support
All lines by TSFlightLines (aka Hoser)
Last edited by Raymo : 05-05-2015 at 02:26 PM.
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05-05-2015, 02:16 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: La Feria Texas
Posts: 3,822
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The webinar on Pre-Buys was great, I think you can see it either on his site or EAA.
There is NO DEFINITION set for a prebuy. If I who am an A&P wanted I could call the owner, confirm it has two wings attached, and charge you for a pre-buy. As stated, make sure he is working only for YOU, and be sure you both understand what is expected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rv7charlie
Buying a plane (especially an older, certified plane) is a process closer to buying a house than buying a car. If you've never done it before and/or don't have a really good idea of what to look for, hire a professional (yours; not the seller's) to do a pre-buy inspection that approaches the level of an annual inspection.
Mike Busch did a recent article on how to do a pre-buy.
Charlie
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05-06-2015, 06:56 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 146
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Wow, great thread. Makes me want to add my $0.02, particularly on the issue of purchasing a certified vs experimental aircraft. As the purchaser of an already built RV(-4), you can see which way I went, but then again I bought for the purpose of owning a great aircraft for the foreseeable future, not just building time to get a license/ratings and then move on. For the price range, nothing in the certified world is going to come close to the performance you'll get out of that RV-6 for sale, and given who the builder was (former chief engineer at Van's, I believe), that probably takes concerns over build quality right out of the equation, which is a major benefit. You might buy that RV-6 and like it so much you just keep it for years.
On the other hand, even though the RV-6 looks to be a great bargain, as others have said you can get an old certified aircraft for even less, and maybe be able to keep maintenance costs to a minimum if you do a really good job selecting one that is basic and not going to need much work. (But I know my maintenance costs have been far less than if I had owned a certified aircraft and been forced to run to an aircraft mechanic every time something needed to be done.)
My main reason for posting is to point out one cost difference between experimental vs certified that hasn't been highlighted yet, and that is hangar expense. IMO, an RV shouldn't be left outside because it's not worth the deterioration you'll incur to the paint job, etc., whereas if you buy an older certified aircraft the chances are it has lived most of its life outside already and has a weathered appearance -- so there would be little to be gained by putting it in a hangar and you might as well just keep it outside, for probably $50-$70/mo, and save a boatload compared to paying hangar rent of $250-$350/mo. Hangar rent is by far my biggest expense in owning my RV (and I'm lucky enough to share a hangar with another experimental, which reduces the cost). I understand there are a couple of RVs kept outside, but they are few and far between, as most people think they should live inside.
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05-06-2015, 08:23 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Vail, Arizona
Posts: 33
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While I agree that the RV-6 is a great deal. I just don't want a conventional gear airplane. And although I could "learn to fly from the right seat" I just don't want to go that route even though I only have 19 hours.
The information in this thread is priceless and exactly why I risked showing my ignorance in asking the questions. Just because I haven't posted in a while (because I've been doing a lot of research and reading the links provided from you guys) doesn't mean I'm not checking in. Please keep the advice coming, it is worth gold to me and for others like me.
I talked to my future CFI at work yesterday and he's almost as excited as I am about buying a plane rather than using the school's. He told me that out of the $50 per hour for an instructor, he "might" get $20 of that. He also told me that he'd only charge me $15 an hour.
Tim and still learning...please keep the advice coming, it is much appreciated.
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05-06-2015, 08:44 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 2,861
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timbeck2
I talked to my future CFI at work yesterday and he's almost as excited as I am about buying a plane rather than using the school's. He told me that out of the $50 per hour for an instructor, he "might" get $20 of that. He also told me that he'd only charge me $15 an hour.
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Make absolutely sure he can "freelance" before you budget for $15/hr instr. Some FBO's/Flight schools don't allow that practice.
I sense that you are becoming emotionally involved with this decision. That is a really bad way to approach an aircraft purchase. Again ask yourself what's your primary reason for purchasing? Are you looking for the absolute cheapest way to earn your Private or are you looking long-term, post check ride? Make sure you objectively crunch the numbers based upon the rental rate. IOW can you buy AND operate (factoring purchase price, direct and indirect costs) for less than $135/hr? Is that an even an issue for you? IMO, you have to have this nailed down before you can seriously begin scouring TAP or Controller much less get into the E-AB vs certified decision process.
__________________
Todd "I drink and know things" Stovall
PP ASEL-IA
RV-10 N728TT - Flying!
WAR EAGLE!
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05-06-2015, 09:04 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Vail, Arizona
Posts: 33
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I asked him that very question about freelancing...although I used "moonlighting" and he said they didn't care what he did on his own time. So that is taken care of.
I'm excited about getting back into training. I'm excited about finishing a goal I set for myself over 20 years ago. I'm excited that my wife is on board. I'm excited about getting things rolling again. Emotional about one plane for sale? No, I'm still shopping around and have bought enough high dollar things in my life that I'm not going to jump on the first thing I see having not done any research about it. This thread is a major item in that research, to get the advice of people who've been there and know the ropes. I'm in the process of lining up an A&P familiar with Piper Cherokee's to help with a pre-buy evaluation on any plane I find, not just the one close to me. I'm waiting on an insurance quote to get an idea of what I'll be paying there. I've sent and received several PM's from members here who are a huge help.
I appreciate the comments here, favorable or not and especially those such as yours which ask questions on how I'm thinking. Keep it coming, I'm not taking my decisions lightly.
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05-06-2015, 01:58 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: La Feria Texas
Posts: 3,822
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Another item to consider, to do an annual on a Cherokee, you will have to pay an IA. They have to maintain their status and I have never found one that will give his time away cheap, look at the $800 level plus parts and labor for anything they can find wrong. The more advanced the plane, the more the cost.. On the other hand, the EAB plane only needs an A&P to do an annual condition inspection, you can do all the work yourself, they are everywhere and often will do one for the fun of it, or for a bit of time in the aircraft if they are old and retired.
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