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  #31  
Old 04-14-2015, 06:28 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Location: Livermore, CA
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Don't guess, and don't rely on other's past history. Just call an insurance broker and ask for an estimate for tail wheel coverage for you in a -6. You may be surprised, you may be shocked. But then you'll know for sure.
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  #32  
Old 04-14-2015, 08:21 PM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Location: Hubbard Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo69bird View Post
How many people who ended up in a low altitude spin do you think got into one intentionally?

Every pilot makes mistakes, the majority of accidents are in the landing configuration or take off, rarely in cruise, and many of those accidents are high time pilots who got complacent.


Doing the best you can to reduce that risk is just a smart thing to do. IMO.

Now, I've got no experience with rv6s and spins, but my decision to look for a 7 tail comes right from the suggestions in this very forum. Another poster asked what to look for in an RV Sloshed tanks, top mounted rudder pedals, thicker tail skin due to cracking , the 7 tail and the slider were all recommendations.
If a bigger tail on an RV-6 would make the difference between turning what would have been a 1 turn spin recovery (RV-6 with smaller tail), into a 1/2 turn (RV-6 with larger tail) I would agree with you, but that is not true (as I tried to convey in my other post but I guess I wasn't very clear).
If that is the idea you have gotten from others here in the forum, you are making your purchase decision based on incorrect info.

As I tried to say before, the difference in ability to recover from a spin when comparing the two tail sizes, when a recovery is initiated immediately after the spin begins would probably be undetectable by most pilots.
You would only notice a difference after the spin has been allowed to fully develop (3+ turns), and even then it would be a small difference.

If that is important to you, then you should search for what you want. Just be properly informed... But it will not make the difference that you seem convinced that it will.
If a difference it is important, then maybe the RV-6 is not the right choice for you. An RV-4 or 8 has an even quicker recovery than the RV-6 (with either tail).
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Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.

Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")

Last edited by rvbuilder2002 : 04-14-2015 at 09:00 PM.
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  #33  
Old 04-14-2015, 08:29 PM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo69bird View Post
Does the 7 tail have more area under the elevator? A recent Aopa (Plymouth mass) seminar I was at stated that it's the area under/below the elevator that makes the difference.
A marginal amount larger on the RV-8 tail version (the reason for my other post saying there is very little difference in spin recovery between the two)
An RV-6 built with the larger tail doesn't actually have an RV-7 vertical tail. It is actually the RV-8 vertical tail. The RV-7 has the same vertical stab as the RV-8 but its rudder is larger.

I have not seen an RV-6 built with an RV-7 vertical stab and rudder. Not saying there isn't a few out there, but it would be very rare I would guess.
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Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.

Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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  #34  
Old 04-14-2015, 08:54 PM
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rolivi rolivi is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
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Default New RV-6A driver

I'm a new RV-6A owner. I had 250 hours in Cherokee, 172, and 177RG and the insurance was a non-issue.

Did about 5 hours of transition training and I'm loving it!

Two things I've noticed --
Take off goes quickly. Like 6-10 seconds and your up.
On landing you REALLY drive it down to to the ground. I'm still working on not rounding out too early.

For your slider vs tip up comment... I went tip-up and I like visibility. Good ground airflow when you leave it propped on the catches.
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  #35  
Old 04-14-2015, 09:13 PM
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Louise Hose Louise Hose is offline
 
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Yep, Larry is right. I thought I had to have an -A model. Turns out that I couldn't (at that time) find a well-built -A model within my price range. Price and well-built were the critical criteria. I ended up with Mikey and love the plane. No regrets after some 1300+ hours with its tailwheel, sloshed tank, bottom-mounted rudder pedals, and tip-up canopy. Couldn't have picked a finer plane!

Quote:
Originally Posted by n5lp View Post
Having preferences is normal and I think some of those preferences have a lot to recommend them, particularly NON-sloshed tanks. Some of the others are strictly personal preference and some are trivial in my opinion.

From experience I can say it is very unlikely that you can find a used RV configured exactly the way you want it. The way to get one exactly like you want is to build it. Otherwise I think it is wiser to look at things like build quality and accept some variances from perfect in the details.

I helped someone RV shop and found a lot of airplanes were not as represented and good build quality was a bit hard to find in the desired RV-6A. This person settled on an old, well built, RV-6, with an obsolete panel. Their few piloting hours were mostly in C-172s and a Cherokee. I think they are very happy with the choice in the end and the airplane has been upgraded considerably from that humble start.

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RV3B, NX13PL "Tsamsiyu" co-builder, TMXIO-320, test platform Legacy G3X/TruTrak avionics suite
RV-6 ?Mikey? (purchased flying) ? Garmin test platform (G3X Touch, GS28 autopilot servos, GTN650 GPS/Nav/Comm,
GNC255 Nav/Com, GA240 audio panel)
RV8, N188PD "Valkyrie" (by marriage)
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  #36  
Old 04-14-2015, 09:45 PM
sandifer sandifer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo69bird View Post
This is precisely what I'm talking about, low altitude, turn increasing stall speed you pull up to miss a bird or something, without applying throttle and boom your in a low altitude spin scenario.

Now Im Not sure if a 7 tail will be enough to make the difference, but at some altitude a slight difference might be the edge you need.

Only someone who's flown both really knows how much better one is than the other. Does the 7 tail have more area under the elevator? A recent Aopa (Plymouth mass) seminar I was at stated that it's the area under/below the elevator that makes the difference.
Relax about the tail. Others on this thread have offered good advice. The 6 recovers from spins with normal inputs - it just takes slightly longer than the 7 once fully developed, and the spin rate is faster. Unless you have spin experience, you may not appreciate how long it takes (while you sit there with the controls fully deflected doing nothing) for a spin to fully develop. It takes several seconds of inaction. It's not something that will happen accidentally to a pilot who is generally competent with spins. Less than fully developed, recovery is more typical. But if your skill level is such that you're in danger of hitting the ground in a fully developed accidental spin, your choice of tail style will not help you any. And as mentioned, if you accidentally enter a spin at typical base to final altitudes, you're probably not going to make it regardless of tail type.

So - you know the best way to avoid spinning into the ground in a developed spin? Get comfortable and competent with spins. Find a good airplane in your price range and don't sweat the details so much.
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  #37  
Old 04-14-2015, 10:08 PM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandifer View Post
The 6 recovers from spins with normal inputs - it just takes slightly longer than the 7 once fully developed, and the spin rate is faster.
Sorry to seem like I am picking the details to death (I guess it is the engineering mind trapped inside me), but if the information on this forum is going to be of value, it must be correct.

The above statement is not true.

The only reason the RV-7 got a bigger rudder than was offered with the late delivery RV-6 kits is because it had a slightly slower recover from a fully developed spin than the RV-6 did.

Before the RV-7 was developed, an RV-6 was modified to simulate an RV-7 (Added temporary wing extensions to increase span, etc.) for doing some preliminary flight testing (including spins). All indications at that time were that the spin recovery would be the same with the longer wings. Unfortunately it was a partial simulation (the RV-7 has a longer fuselage). When the RV-7 was introduced it was advertised as having the same spin recovery traits as the RV-6. When detailed testing was able to be done later on on an RV-7, it was discovered that the rate of recovery from a Fully Developed spin was slightly slower than the RV-6. Since this didn't match the original claim, a larger rudder was offered to all customers and then was made standard for all kits delivered from that point on.

So the correction to above would be... The RV-6 and RV-7 have about the rate of recovery from a fully developed (3+ turns) spin, and the rate of rotation is about the same for both.
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Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.

Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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  #38  
Old 04-14-2015, 11:07 PM
sandifer sandifer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
Sorry to seem like I am picking the details to death (I guess it is the engineering mind trapped inside me), but if the information on this forum is going to be of value, it must be correct.

The above statement is not true.

The only reason the RV-7 got a bigger rudder than was offered with the late delivery RV-6 kits is because it had a slightly slower recover from a fully developed spin than the RV-6 did.

Before the RV-7 was developed, an RV-6 was modified to simulate an RV-7 (Added temporary wing extensions to increase span, etc.) for doing some preliminary flight testing (including spins). All indications at that time were that the spin recovery would be the same with the longer wings. Unfortunately it was a partial simulation (the RV-7 has a longer fuselage). When the RV-7 was introduced it was advertised as having the same spin recovery traits as the RV-6. When detailed testing was able to be done later on on an RV-7, it was discovered that the rate of recovery from a Fully Developed spin was slightly slower than the RV-6. Since this didn't match the original claim, a larger rudder was offered to all customers and then was made standard for all kits delivered from that point on.

So the correction to above would be... The RV-6 and RV-7 have about the rate of recovery from a fully developed (3+ turns) spin, and the rate of rotation is about the same for both.
Can't argue with any of that since I haven't spun a 7 with either the original rudder, or the 9 rudder, or a 6 in the original configuration. Aside from the RV-3, I've only spun a 6 with a 7 tail...though I'm not sure whether it had the original 7 rudder or the 9 rudder that came with 7 kits starting in '02. Recovery fully developed on that one was within 1/4 turn - and I know this doesn't precisely replicate the true 7 configuration with either rudder style. Vans bulletin states the 9 rudder on a 7 recovers a spin equal to or better than the 6, and I was only basing my statement on that hinting from Vans as well as other pilots who I've heard say the current rudder on a 7 spins a little slower and recovers a little quicker than a 6, fully developed. Maybe that's not true, maybe it is, maybe these are issues of perception, maybe there are differences among aircraft of the same model and rudder...I don't know. But I think we're both saying to the OP that any possible spin differences between the 6 and 7 are unimportant from a practical standpoint.
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  #39  
Old 04-15-2015, 06:58 AM
Vac Vac is offline
 
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Location: Niceville, Florida
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Default Training and Test are Key

Scott and Eric's posts immediately above sum this up well.

The full bulletin that Scott referred to (02-6-1, published 8 Jun 02) can be found on the factory site. Additionally, there is excellent information available in the flight test section of the builder's manual. This information that was incorporated in the spin discussion(s) in the draft transition training syllabus available on the safety page. Builder's manuals are part of the preview plans sets available for any of the RV-types and are an inexpensive, outstanding resource for folks that are buying or contemplating buying a "new to them" RV-type.

Due to differences in individual aircraft even of the same type, it is difficult to pin down precise handling and performance characteristics. Although generalities can be drawn from informed study and discussion, receiving proper transition training and then testing an individual aircraft is the only way to determine precise characteristics for a particular airplane.

With proper training, low time pilots are capable of confidently transitioning to any of the RV-types, regardless of landing gear configuration. The basic portion of the draft transition training syllabus is designed to do that and can serve as a familiarization reference (or just light reading) for folks thinking about transitioning to any of the Van's RV types. Working with any of the cadre of transition trainers or a local instructor familiar with RV's is the next order of business. Time spent learning and money spent on training are the best investments anyone can make on the most important component in the airplane: the pilot...far more important than agonizing over the tail configuration or avionics suite.

I had only 82 hours of military flying time when I transitioned to the T-38 and less than 200 hours when I first checked out in the F-4...the point being the quality of the training and experience is what matters, not total flying time.

Fly safe,

Vac
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  #40  
Old 04-15-2015, 08:46 AM
Turbo69bird Turbo69bird is offline
 
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Posts: 284
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Which tail is this:

http://www.barnstormers.com/listing_....php?id=948094

Also reference this thread for 7 upgrades others are going to some trouble to add to 6s

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...d.php?t=123778

Also another adding a 7 tail:

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...d.php?t=123964


Must be a reason people are going through all this trouble no?

I've built a lot of cars, no planes😀. With the cars if you see multiple people making the same mod. It's usually for a pretty good reason.

We do get the trick part of the week guys too, who think a bolt on will compensate for lack of skill but of course it won't.

I know the cars though, so I know which mods work and which don't. I'm trying to learn that before purchase here, so as not to make big mistakes in the buying process.
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While I'm not a builder if I happen to give advice , I will not be responsible for damage to equipment, your ego, parts, world wide power outages, spontaneously generated black holes, planetary disruptions, or personal injury that may result from the use of this advice.
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