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  #1  
Old 04-03-2015, 05:34 AM
mturnerb mturnerb is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ponte Vedra, FL
Posts: 1,474
Default Advice for a potential RV-12 owner

Hello all

I'm a pilot (Private/instrument - 350 hrs) who has been out of flying for a while (20 years) for all the usual reasons and wants to return to the club. I'm aware of current action around 3rd class medical, but assuming this is going to take a while (and not wanting to run the gauntlet of getting waivers for my normal aging-related health issues) the LSA route looks attractive, and the RV-12 looks like a good fit for my interests. It would be nice to actually see one and even ride/fly one to get a better sense of whether this is the right aircraft for me. I'm not interested now in building a plane - still working and extensive travel makes this impractical, but might consider this when I'm (semi) retired in a few years. I'm not particularly experienced with metalworking/mechanical skills but good with electronics and good at following instructions and tapping online resources. So some questions for this group of experts:

1. Pros and cons of buying a production RV-12 versus used kit-built?
2. Related to #1, what's the best way to get a used/kit built aircraft objectively evaluated?
3. What's the best way to get current (no LSA flight school/rental in my area - Jacksonville/St Augustine - that I can find) while in the process/
4. What's a reasonable transition/training plan once aircraft is chosen/purchased - in light of location? (If anyone can point me to owners/CFI's/other resources in North Florida / South Georgia that would be helpful)
5. Given my current experience level and plan to go "no medical" what should I expect insurance to cost (understanding that airframe value will impact this)?
6. In the same vein, what is reasonable to expect in terms of maintenance/annual costs? I'm not sure whether I'd pursue the repairman certification but thoughts on this appreciated.
7. Is the interior temperature manageable for someone who will fly in Florida/the Southeast for the most part? I tend to like to fly earlier in the day and late afternoon in the summer based on my previous experiences with thermals and pop-up storms in Florida.
8. What are the "gotchas" for a pilot with experience mostly in BE-23 and PA-28?

Quite a bit to ask - and any input very much appreciated.
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  #2  
Old 04-03-2015, 06:24 AM
novipilot novipilot is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Novi, MI & Venice, FL
Posts: 66
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The is a some LSA activity at Punta Gorda, Sebring, and Lakeland. You might catch a ride in a 12 at Sun N Fun if Mitch Lock brings the Vans demo down. I would definitely recommend multi-hour transition training if you've never flown. LSA. A big difference between LSA and your PA28 is the power setting numbers with the Rotax, the weight of the plane and how it responds, the castering nosewheel, and even your own rudder skills (hence the need for transition training).
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Rich Bond
Just a wishful observer
Gave up awaiting AOPA/EAA exemption request
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  #3  
Old 04-03-2015, 06:26 AM
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tomkk tomkk is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Port Orange, Fl
Posts: 931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mturnerb View Post
Hello all

I'm a pilot (Private/instrument - 350 hrs) who has been out of flying for a while (20 years) for all the usual reasons and wants to return to the club. I'm aware of current action around 3rd class medical, but assuming this is going to take a while (and not wanting to run the gauntlet of getting waivers for my normal aging-related health issues) the LSA route looks attractive, and the RV-12 looks like a good fit for my interests. It would be nice to actually see one and even ride/fly one to get a better sense of whether this is the right aircraft for me. I'm not interested now in building a plane - still working and extensive travel makes this impractical, but might consider this when I'm (semi) retired in a few years. I'm not particularly experienced with metalworking/mechanical skills but good with electronics and good at following instructions and tapping online resources. So some questions for this group of experts:

1. Pros and cons of buying a production RV-12 versus used kit-built?
2. Related to #1, what's the best way to get a used/kit built aircraft objectively evaluated?
3. What's the best way to get current (no LSA flight school/rental in my area - Jacksonville/St Augustine - that I can find) while in the process/
4. What's a reasonable transition/training plan once aircraft is chosen/purchased - in light of location? (If anyone can point me to owners/CFI's/other resources in North Florida / South Georgia that would be helpful)
5. Given my current experience level and plan to go "no medical" what should I expect insurance to cost (understanding that airframe value will impact this)?
6. In the same vein, what is reasonable to expect in terms of maintenance/annual costs? I'm not sure whether I'd pursue the repairman certification but thoughts on this appreciated.
7. Is the interior temperature manageable for someone who will fly in Florida/the Southeast for the most part? I tend to like to fly earlier in the day and late afternoon in the summer based on my previous experiences with thermals and pop-up storms in Florida.
8. What are the "gotchas" for a pilot with experience mostly in BE-23 and PA-28?

Quite a bit to ask - and any input very much appreciated.
I'm in exactly the same situation as you except I have a couple of hundred hours more and have been out of aviation for 10 more years.

1. I picked the -12 for the reasons you mention plus I needed very little extra help - I don't have anyone to buck rivets. The build has been a lot of fun. I've done it all so far in my two car garage - moving to a hanger in DeLand Monday.

2. Didn't know this was even a possibility until I started following VAF. They come up for sale every once in a while.

3., 4. There's an outfit in Apopka that does LSA training in Tecnam Sierra's. They're as close to a -12 I've been able to find. I haven't talked to them yet about it but I intend to next week.

Can't help with the others.
__________________
Tom
Port Orange, Fl
EAA #51411
RV-12 N121TK ELSA #120845; first flight 06/10/2015; 700 hrs as of 02/2020
RV-12 N918EN ELSA #120995 Eagles Nest Project; first flight 05/18/2019
SPA Panther N26TK; First Flight 03/13/2020
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  #4  
Old 04-03-2015, 06:28 AM
Mich48041 Mich48041 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Riley TWP MI
Posts: 3,070
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According to this FAA AIRCRAFT REGISTRY, there are several RV-12s located in FL. Some are based at Spruce Creek airpark in Port Orange.
Building a RV-12 is more of assembly rather than building. It is the easiest to build of all of the kit planes. Your electronic skills might not be needed with the RV-12 plug and play electrical and avionics system.
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RV-12 Flying
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  #5  
Old 04-03-2015, 06:48 AM
mturnerb mturnerb is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ponte Vedra, FL
Posts: 1,474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novipilot View Post
The is a some LSA activity at Punta Gorda, Sebring, and Lakeland. You might catch a ride in a 12 at Sun N Fun if Mitch Lock brings the Vans demo down. I would definitely recommend multi-hour transition training if you've never flown. LSA. A big difference between LSA and your PA28 is the power setting numbers with the Rotax, the weight of the plane and how it responds, the castering nosewheel, and even your own rudder skills (hence the need for transition training).
Thanks - great information and good advice! I'm going to give Van's a call to ask about a few things and will inquire about the demonstrator.
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  #6  
Old 04-03-2015, 06:51 AM
mturnerb mturnerb is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ponte Vedra, FL
Posts: 1,474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomkk View Post
I'm in exactly the same situation as you except I have a couple of hundred hours more and have been out of aviation for 10 more years.

1. I picked the -12 for the reasons you mention plus I needed very little extra help - I don't have anyone to buck rivets. The build has been a lot of fun. I've done it all so far in my two car garage - moving to a hanger in DeLand Monday.

2. Didn't know this was even a possibility until I started following VAF. They come up for sale every once in a while.

3., 4. There's an outfit in Apopka that does LSA training in Tecnam Sierra's. They're as close to a -12 I've been able to find. I haven't talked to them yet about it but I intend to next week.

Can't help with the others.
Thanks Tom: perhaps we could get together sometime and share notes/thoughts soon - I'm just up the road from you. FYI DeLand was my favorite "$100 hamburger" haunt back in the day - watch skydivers and eat one of the best burgers ever. But the first time chutes started popping when I was on final was a bit unnerving!
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  #7  
Old 04-03-2015, 06:54 AM
mturnerb mturnerb is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ponte Vedra, FL
Posts: 1,474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mich48041 View Post
According to this FAA AIRCRAFT REGISTRY, there are several RV-12s located in FL. Some are based at Spruce Creek airpark in Port Orange.
Building a RV-12 is more of assembly rather than building. It is the easiest to build of all of the kit planes. Your electronic skills might not be needed with the RV-12 plug and play electrical and avionics system.
Thank you for this information. For me I think the bigger near-term issue is time. My job requires frequent international and domestic travel which makes continuity and consistency a real problem. I have seen one "nearly finished" RV-12 for sale, and may look into that. My wife is somewhat disposed to a "factory built" aircraft and may be the quickest way to get flying if we choose to go that route.
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  #8  
Old 04-03-2015, 07:48 AM
yankee-flyer yankee-flyer is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 838
Default Advantage of E-LSA

The biggest advantage of going E-LSA is the savings in maintennance cost. Take the 16-hour course-- it's fun and you'll learn a lot. You can then do the condition inspection and any work that needs to be done yourself.

Flying early morning is a VERY good idea. The -12's light weight and high-lift airfoil gives it GREAT takeoff and climb performance but also results in a very sharp-edged gust response. Once you bang your head on the canopy you'll learn to keep the lap belts tight. More fun to fly and the easiest airplane to make good landings-- if you keep the speed down-- I've ever flown. DEFINITELY get transition training-- maybe even do re-currency in a -12.

Wayne 120241/143WM
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  #9  
Old 04-03-2015, 07:53 AM
Bill_H's Avatar
Bill_H Bill_H is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Marshall TX (KASL)
Posts: 1,783
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Some answers:
1. Pros and cons of buying a production RV-12 versus used kit-built?
I would not hesitate to buy an ELSA kit-built. There is not a lot of fabrication at all to an RV12, it is assembly. Get a good inspection, but a -12 is easy to inspect. You could save considerable money compared to a factory built. An "almost finished" one could be a good idea as well. Remember, you have to pay for a paint job. Be sure to get the plans with the plane, or buy a set from Vans.

4. What's a reasonable transition/training plan once aircraft is chosen/purchased - in light of location? (If anyone can point me to owners/CFI's/other resources in North Florida / South Georgia that would be helpful)

I had been out of flying for 7 years when my RV12 was almost complete. I took a 5 hour transition course with Jetguy in Dallas. Good to go.

5. Given my current experience level and plan to go "no medical" what should I expect insurance to cost (understanding that airframe value will impact this)?

I let my medical lapse as well. Get a quote from Falcon Insurance for a definitive answer based on your flying history. Falcon wanted the 5 hour transition in my case.

6. In the same vein, what is reasonable to expect in terms of maintenance/annual costs? I'm not sure whether I'd pursue the repairman certification but thoughts on this appreciated.

They will be very low. Getting the repairman certificate is a no-brainer. A weekend course. You can do all the work on the plane without one except for the annual inspection. You might want to get some assistance on that the first time anyway.

7. Is the interior temperature manageable for someone who will fly in Florida/the Southeast for the most part? I tend to like to fly earlier in the day and late afternoon in the summer based on my previous experiences with thermals and pop-up storms in Florida.

The Koger sunshade is a must-have. With that you'll be OK.

8. What are the "gotchas" for a pilot with experience mostly in BE-23 and PA-28?

Nothing that transition training won't cover. Surprisingly, it has more torque effect that my V-35 had. Very sprightly for 100 HP! Free castering nosewheel will take some getting used to. Point the plane about 10 degrees to the right of centerline for takeoff, then it will swing itself straight at about the time the rudder becomes effective. Takeoff with no flaps is quite a bit longer that takeoff with the recommended half flaps. Also, the last 100 pounds to gross weight makes a significant difference in performance.

You really want the Skyview.
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Bill H, RV12, N412BR "Sweetie", Skyview-equipped, KASL Marshall TX
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  #10  
Old 04-03-2015, 08:02 AM
mturnerb mturnerb is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ponte Vedra, FL
Posts: 1,474
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_H View Post
Some answers:
1. Pros and cons of buying a production RV-12 versus used kit-built?
I would not hesitate to buy an ELSA kit-built. There is not a lot of fabrication at all to an RV12, it is assembly. Get a good inspection, but a -12 is easy to inspect. You could save considerable money compared to a factory built. An "almost finished" one could be a good idea as well. Remember, you have to pay for a paint job. Be sure to get the plans with the plane, or buy a set from Vans.

4. What's a reasonable transition/training plan once aircraft is chosen/purchased - in light of location? (If anyone can point me to owners/CFI's/other resources in North Florida / South Georgia that would be helpful)

I had been out of flying for 7 years when my RV12 was almost complete. I took a 5 hour transition course with Jetguy in Dallas. Good to go.

5. Given my current experience level and plan to go "no medical" what should I expect insurance to cost (understanding that airframe value will impact this)?

I let my medical lapse as well. Get a quote from Falcon Insurance for a definitive answer based on your flying history. Falcon wanted the 5 hour transition in my case.

6. In the same vein, what is reasonable to expect in terms of maintenance/annual costs? I'm not sure whether I'd pursue the repairman certification but thoughts on this appreciated.

They will be very low. Getting the repairman certificate is a no-brainer. A weekend course. You can do all the work on the plane without one except for the annual inspection. You might want to get some assistance on that the first time anyway.

7. Is the interior temperature manageable for someone who will fly in Florida/the Southeast for the most part? I tend to like to fly earlier in the day and late afternoon in the summer based on my previous experiences with thermals and pop-up storms in Florida.

The Koger sunshade is a must-have. With that you'll be OK.

8. What are the "gotchas" for a pilot with experience mostly in BE-23 and PA-28?

Nothing that transition training won't cover. Surprisingly, it has more torque effect that my V-35 had. Very sprightly for 100 HP! Free castering nosewheel will take some getting used to. Point the plane about 10 degrees to the right of centerline for takeoff, then it will swing itself straight at about the time the rudder becomes effective. Takeoff with no flaps is quite a bit longer that takeoff with the recommended half flaps. Also, the last 100 pounds to gross weight makes a significant difference in performance.

You really want the Skyview.
Bill this is outstanding. Thank you very much. FYI I notice you live in Arkansas. I learned to fly at Central Flying Service in Little Rock (I was in the Air Force at the time) and got my private checkride from Claude Holbert who founded that company: He died two weeks later, with something like 50,000 hours and having trained pilots for the Army Air Force in WWII. My dad was a Razorback and grew up around Mena/Helena area.
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