IFR Training questions

[Don]

I recently stopped by a local flight school and inquired about an ad they had for IFR training. The short version is the ad suggested you could get your IFR ticket for $1500...or a little more. When I asked what the typical range was for pilots to get their IFR ticket I was told $7,000 to 10,000. I was a bit taken back.

It basically seems the core elements to getting the IFR certification are:

1. A PPL and 50 hours of XC as PIC.

2. 40 hours of actual or simulated IFR, 15 hours of which are from a CFII

3. A 250 mile XC trip done IFR with an instructor.

4. Capability to do 3 types of approaches.

5. Pass the written test (takes an endorsement)

6. Pass the practical test.

Item one is a non-issue. The last I checked I had over 200 hour XC.

I'm wondering if anyone can enlighten me on item 2. Can 25 (or more) hours be done flying a VFR equipped aircraft using a hood and with a safety pilot? I realize the remaining 15 hours would need to be done with a CFII and in an instrument equipped aircraft. I would assume the time spent with the instructor would be to learn to fly the approaches and practice communications with ATC - and doing holds.

I would also assume that studying for the written test would (or could) largely be done on your own. It would be here that you'd learn about ATC communications, clearances, holds, and approaches. It seems to me a poor use of time to pay for a plane and an instructor to acquire the knowledge aspect of these skills. Instead, learn to understand them and then pay for plane and CFII to learn to do them. Of course there's always the question about how long it would take to learn to actually perform these skills and I'm not kidding myself that 15 hours is a likely outcome.

If I'm understanding this correctly, it looks like an instrument rating could be acquired for half or less of the price quoted me. So, can you build simulated IFR time in a VFR plane with another pilot acting as safety pilot? Can you actually learn the knowledge part on your own (and demonstrate it to a CFII for an endorsement)? And can you make significant headway into learning the practical aspects of flying IFR as I've described?

[MarkW]

There are many book or online courses that provide the training and endorsement for the written. That part is easy. You don't even have to talk to a CFII for that part.
I believe you can get simulated time with a VFR aircraft and a safety pilot because I believe you only need that to be enroute with a hood. However if you go that route it usually takes more than 15 hours with a CFII to get proficient.

[Bavafa]

Regarding item 2, when I did my training a few years ago, the required dual with an instructor was 20 hours and not 15. The other portion (20 or 25 hours) needs to be done in an aircraft that you can practice the type of approaches for IFR, so if it is purely a VFR plane then how are you expecting to practice those trainings.

Also, just like the PPL, the 40 hour requirement is the minimum. Most people as I understand it take longer to be proficient enough to go to the test. I think it took me about 50 hours or possibly more. In regards to the cost, I can?t comment as I am not sure you would be using your own plane or rent it. Obviously the cost would be different so you can simply estimate the cost of the rental/gas and instructor. My instructor charged me $50/hour using my own plane.

I did all the study myself and went really well for the exam but it does not cover much for real life flying and this is where the instructor is needed to clarify and understand it well. As a final note, I found IFR ticket was harder than PPL and some of my friends who have done it agree with this.

Best of luck

[C. Brenden]

Lot's of great questions - I'm sure you'll get a lot of input from many qualified folks on this subject. I have a lot to say but not much time right now.
I'll start off by saying this is a great idea. IFR training is very important, lot's of fun, and very challenging.
1st. I would HIGHLY recommend that the time that is mentioned to fly with a safety pilot is not done before the time with a CFII, but in between lessons. It's very important to learn things right the first time from a qualified instructor. Fly with a CFII, then go up for a flight with a safety pilot and practice/repeat what you accomplished on your previous lesson. Then repeat.
2nd. Talk to your instructor first and have a very detailed syllabus planned. This will save money and make sure all items are taught.
3rd. Basic attitude/instrument flying comes first. Don't jump ahead until you've got this down. Doing ILS approaches on your third flight sounds good but is a complete waste of time until you can control the airplane.

My father was an awesome flight instructor and we flew almost 20 hours in my RV6 doing basic attitude flying before I switched to an IFR equipped C172.
We would track a course on my GPS and do holding at VORS and waypoints but the only approach we did was an ASR approach.

[bill@fusion4.net]

I did mine with about 20 hr CFI, and 20 hr with a safety pilot. All were in a plane that was IFR equiped.

Some of the non-CFI time could be in a VFR (with 6 pack at least) airplane, but some of that time will be practicing approaches. If the VFR plane has the equipment needed to do approaches, but is just not certified for IFR, then it would be fine. If not you need to find a plane that has the equipment needed to practice approaches, but a safety pilot (prefferably IFR rated) would be fine.

[JPJ]

Don ? I agree with MarkW. I believe that since you are currently flying your own airplane, you can get good training for much less. Some things to think about:
1. Since you have a PPL, you already have logged some hood time. That time counts toward the 40 hours. Also, yes you can log hood time in your airplane or a friends airplane as long as you have a qualified safety pilot. Keep in mind, though, that this type of practice is more beneficial once you have started flying with an instructor.
2. Look at the actual regulations (CFR 14 61 and CFR 14 91) (what we used to call ?the FARs?) and figure out exactly the minimum that you need. Obviously, you don?t want to aspire to the minimum, but you have to know that you have at least met those requirements. Opinions are great, but the facts are the facts?
3. There are some great DVD courses for passing the written exam from AOPA, Sporty?s, Gleim, etc. Find one that you like, and actually watch the whole program and do the accompanying study guide work. Then you can get the completion certificate and take the FAA exam (no CFII endorsement required to take the written exam). I recommend doing this first. Meeting the requirements and passing the written exam doesn?t teach you everything you need to know to get an instrument rating, but it establishes a good base and reduces the time you spend with an instructor on basics that you can do yourself.
4. Get some of your Instrument rated friends to take you flying with them when they fly IFR, even in your airplane if it is so equipped. Seeing is believing.
5. Microsoft Flight Sim is a great program to practice instrument procedures with, once you have someone explain them to you. This cannot be logged toward a rating, but it is really nice to be able to push the pause button when you get confused. There are other programs, too.
6. Referring to item 2, look up exactly what equipment the regs state that you need for your airplane to be flown in the IFR system (one com radio, one nav radio if not using ground controlled approaches, one transponder with mode C, etc. There is no mention of GPS, heated pitot, etc.). It?s nice to have lots of ?backups?, but you don?t need to spend a lot of money until you get the rating and try what you already have. You may find that what you have is all you need?
7. Discuss with your local pilot friends the +/- of using your airplane vs a local flight school airplane for your training.
8. Even if you don?t ever intend to fly IFR, having the instrument training is probably the single best thing you can do to increase the utility of your 180 mph airplane.
Have some fun while you are at it?

[BobTurner]

Lots of good thoughts here. I'll just add a few.
Yes, you can log time under the hood with a safety pilot. But you have to do work! In my experience 40 - 50 hours of work is what most people require, to be ready to take the test. A large part of this is figuring out how to integrate the various tasks along with basic control. So flying straight and level under the hood can be logged, but beyond half a dozen hours or so it won't help much with your proficiency. Either you or your safety pilot needs to make you work - ad hoc holds, course re-routes, unusual attitudes, partial panel, approaches, missed approaches, etc.

If you have an ifr gps then you should learn how to use it. This may take extra time (do it on the ground as much as possible). But also be prepared to fly without that moving map.

Airplane. Download the ifr PTS and read the forward regarding the airplane you must furnish for the test. Today some pilots have only a WAAS gps (TSO'd) and that is legal for ifr, but not enough to take the test!

[Auburntsts]

Are you a Vet? If so do you have any GI bill eligibility remaining? If you do then going part 141 will shorten the process by a few hours and will be significantly cheaper.

Beside going up with a safety pilot under the hood, you can also log time in an AATD (eg Redbird FMX,etc). They just changed the rules on how many hours can be logged but I don't recall of the top of my head for either part 61 or 141 what the max is now (it dropped is all I remember). I went 141 and got my IR back in Nov 14 and was able to count 14 AATD hrs towards the 35 total that was required and that I showed up with in my logbook to take the checkride.

Whatever you do, do not practice with a safety pilot or at home on a Sim until you have been trained by a CFII and have the task down cold. Otherwise almost guaranteed you'll learn bad habits which you'll just have to unlearn and will add time and cost to your pursuit.

One thing you can do right now on any flight is fly to PTS standards for heading and altitude all the time. Learning attitude flying is the foundation for instrument flying. Filing, flying "the system" IFR and shooting approaches is more about rules and procedures, but none of that will matter if you can't keep basic control of the airplane.

[samray]

There are a *lot* of new skills to pick up- those tasks are repeated over and over until they become second nature. There are so many tasks that need to be learned that they are introduced at a rate the student can absorb. Think juggling 3-5 chain saws in the air. A good instructor will figure out what you are not catching on to, then connect in a way to help you understand the issues. If you fly by yourself, there is a very good chance you will reinforce bad habits that will have to be unlearned when you do fly with an instructor, thus not really saving any money in the end. It was the best money I ever spent, that $200 an hour for an instructor plus a decent IFR airplane, making me a more complete pilot. I was flying at night, in the fog and clouds, so wanted a safe, relatively new airplane. The secret is to find the right instructor for you- I was lucky enough to fly with a gold seal instructor (high 1st pass rate) who was type rated in 737's so I learned a lot of crew/team oriented concepts taught at the airlines. Plus he had a fun personality. Good luck on which ever direction you take; and have fun!

[marcumb]

Unless your safety pilot knows and will hold you to pts standards, it's negative training. When I trained primary students I made it a priority to fly their "hood" time in actual IMC. I'd ask for and get a block altitude between a couple of VOR radials. That way I could have him as end, descend, turn, etc. So much better that hood time.