New Operating Limitations coming!

[JonJay]

For Sale - RV6, 650 hours, IO360/CS, glass, excellent workmanship = $1
Ops Limits = priceless......

Only 2500 to choose from. Get yours while they last....

[1001001]

Originally Posted by Mel

I assure you it's NOT a typo. It's confirmed and goes into effect 03/31/2015.
Obviously the writers have no clue about the real world.
In the new order, ALL operating limitations are lumped together with each paragraph (55 of them) tagged as to what category they apply to.
It's obviously a problem that will be addressed, but how long will that take.
Like I say, the order goes into effect next week!
Believe it or not, my FAA supervisor suggested that I contact EAA headquarters. It seems that nowadays EAA has more power than the FAA who actually writes the rules. Ironic?

Mel, when did this come available? Just today? I was under the impression that federal regulations need to be vetted through public comment before promulgation. Was this out there and ignored or misinterpreted for a while?

[lr172]

Originally Posted by 1001001

Mel, when did this come available? Just today? I was under the impression that federal regulations need to be vetted through public comment before promulgation. Was this out there and ignored or misinterpreted for a while?

I just did some research. A set of changes went out a year ago for review. I found a link to the EAA's response.

http://www.eaa.org/~/media/files/new...a-comments.pdf

I am going to miss by a month or two. I have a sick feeling in my gut. I don't believe this.

Larry

[N941WR]

Originally Posted by Mike S

early april fools sneak attack?????????

Exactly what I thought.

This doesn't sound good.

It has to be type-O.

Mel, can you post the new regs or a link to them?

[Mel]

We got our notice Friday. FAA Order 8130.2H was written 02/06/2015 and is 322 pages long. There are MANY other changes but the new op lims (appendix C) are the biggest ones that affect us.

[rmartingt]

I think I found it... http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...er_8130_2H.pdf

In Table C-1, number 43 (which applies only to phase II)

For aircraft in 191d,e,g,h,&i (experimental exhibition, racing, amateur-built, primary kit-built, and LSA) it says "Issue if applicable, refer to paragraphs 3 and 5c" and the limitation is "The carriage of passengers is prohibited". Paragraph 3 is a general statement about issuing limitations; 5c says

Aircraft with very high risk factors or safety of flight issues must have those factors properly mitigated. Restrict operations to a specified geographical area, and prohibit the carriage of passengers, flight over densely populated areas, and night or instrument flight rules (IFR) operations in the following:
(1)
Aircraft for which the applicant has surrendered a special LSA airworthiness certificate (§ 21.190) and is applying for an experimental airworthiness certificate (§ 21.191) for the first time, and is not in compliance with § 91.327(b)(3) or (4);
(2)
Aircraft for which the manufacturer’s or country of origin’s emergency checklist requires bailout or ejection in the event of an engine or other system failure;
(3)
Any aircraft in which a single system failure will render the aircraft uncontrollable, such as an airplane with a hydraulic flight control system with only one hydraulic pump;
(4)
Aircraft unable to comply with § 91.117(a) in normal cruise configuration; and
(5)
Rocket-powered aircraft.

My reading of this is that, since the limitation says "issue if applicable, ref paras 3 and 5c" and 5c says to restrict carriage of passengers for the 5 items, and a regular E-AB doesn't fall in those 5 items (not LSA, no bailout checklist item, no single failure renders uncontrollable, can operate below 10,000MSL below 250kt in cruise, and not rocket-powered), it doesn't apply.

Further, I read that the statement about S-LSA to E-LSA applies only if the aircraft doesn't comply with 91.327(b)(3) and (4)

(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category unless—
...
(3) The owner or operator complies with all applicable airworthiness directives;

(4) The owner or operator complies with each safety directive applicable to the aircraft that corrects an existing unsafe condition. In lieu of complying with a safety directive an owner or operator may—

(i) Correct the unsafe condition in a manner different from that specified in the safety directive provided the person issuing the directive concurs with the action; or

(ii) Obtain an FAA waiver from the provisions of the safety directive based on a conclusion that the safety directive was issued without adhering to the applicable consensus standard...

[n468ac]

Originally Posted by Mel

OK, You've waited for it. The new order 8130.2H here.
Beginning 03/31/2015 operating limitations will all get a new look.
And you AIN'T gonna like 'em.
In addition to many other changes, op lims issued 03/31/2015 and later will prohibit the caring of passengers for all EAB and ELSA during phase II.
Yep, I said phase II. That's like for the life of the aircraft.

I've tried contacting FAA from my local office to Oklahoma City. No one will respond.

We all need to make noise!

Looks like you have to tell the passengers aircraft does not meet the FAA safety requirements????

page 302:

38 -

190 & 191(d), (e), (f), (g), (h), & (i)
191(a), (b), & (c) are always prohibited from carrying passengers -

The pilot in command of this aircraft must advise passengers that the aircraft does not meet the FAA safety requirements of a standard certificated aircraft.
or
The carriage of passengers is prohibited.



**** after rereading some of the other responses ... it's like most papers from the government ... it was written by lawyers and needs a translator to explain what they are talking about ****

[AndyRV7]

Is that met by the passenger placard?

[1001001]

I also saw a proposed provision that severely limits or prohibits operation over congested areas and in defined airways, and under IFR.

Any of these provisions, if they actually stand, remove much of the utility of EAB aircraft and could spell the death of the industry.

[sbalmos]

Tony, again it refers back to para's 3 & 5c. 5c seems to be the hangup in legalese when reading it at first. However, when I read through it, I seem to agree with Bob. There's nothing that affects us normal E/AB'ers. The only one that's really confusing is 5(c)(1), where an SLSA converting to an ELSA would have to be in compliance with 91.327(b)(3)/(4).

But in general, tearing through the legalese, I don't see any new passenger restriction on the rest of us.

As for what Chris pointed out about passenger warnings, that'd be covered by the placard that we all carry on our panels anyway, as far as I can read.

Nothing out of the ordinary, move on?