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03-19-2015, 06:05 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 1,647
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Get over it...
This all sounds very familiar. We've been through all this sort of stuff with the RV-12, and not too long ago either. It too had its fair share of delays, with vocal complaints from some on the forum - but fortunately not very many. Most people realise that Van's do a great job and that they are lucky to have someone with Van's experience and expertise in this business. Sure, unexpected delays can be frustrating, but the fact is that Vans produces a very high quality product across a wide range of aircraft. The RV-14 is new, it's very sophisticated, and its development is going to take time. Maybe more time than some of you would like, but if the RV-12 is anything to go by, you fortunate RV-14 builders will get a very well developed product. Scott also does a great job in an often thankless environment. I also sometimes wonder why he bothers, but I'm glad he does.
__________________
rgmwa
RV-12LR 912ULS
120346
Last edited by rgmwa : 03-19-2015 at 06:20 AM.
Reason: typo
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03-19-2015, 06:44 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Boston Area
Posts: 284
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Just need official communication from Vans
Scott is invaluable here in my opinion (Thanks, I search and read every one of your posts regardless of what forum they are in).
I am early enough in the build process in the grand scheme of things that I will not be waiting much for anything with the 14.
The main issue is really for Vans itself: MUCH more frequent updates are needed from the company on the progress or lack thereof and reasoning. Even a monthly or bi-monthly update would keep most of this at bay.
__________________
Jeff
RV-14A
Status: Wings complete(ish), Working on: Empennage. Fuselage kit on order
Location:MA
http://vans14a.blogspot.com/
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03-19-2015, 10:53 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 356
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Another word of support
Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002
Certainly makes me reevaluate why I bother......
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I usually avoid threads of complaints, but when a valuable member of a forum begins to wonder why he bothers, a word of encouragement is in order. I'm sure the thought was just in passing but I want you to know that I and many others value your unofficial input.
Someone upthread mentioned his opinions about the matter and I agree that we are each entitled to our own opinions. But like the saying goes, we are not each entitled to our own facts.
I can't speak to the earliest purchasers of the wing kit but as of Airventure 2013 there are simply no facts that an early or imminent delivery of all kits was being promised.
I put my money down at Airventure 2013 which was a few days after the announcement of Vans taking orders for the empennage kit. I spoke with everyone at the Vans both and took a demo flight in the 14.
No one made any promises of any kind about future deliveries and none would speculate about a schedule of deliveries when pressed. The most I got - and I believe the official Vans company line at the time - was that the plan was for the fuselage kit to quickly follow the deliveries of the empennage kit. Verbal comments were similar but hedged, referring to un-forseen empennage kit delays as an example.
From that point on, while there has not been a tremendous amount of communications from Vans about delivery schedules, the statements on the website have spoken for themselves. They contain no promises of any kind.
When I put my money down, I spoke to my wife about two risks we had in buying the 14. The first was that the kits would be released much later than planned and I would catch up and be waiting for kits.
I told her about how long I saw it took for the 12 to finish up and told her the risk of delay was very high to near certain. However, the risk of me catching up based on my previous build was low. She laughed that risk off.
The second risk I considered extremely low to vanishingly small. That was that some financial issue could befall Vans as it has many other kit manufacturers and that some of the remaining kits would not get delivered at all. Even with the reputation Vans had that was the only thing we considered of any threat, albeit a minuscule one.
I also told her that once the finishing kit came out, no mater what happened I would be able to finish the airplane. I predicted then a summer 2016 completion date with many caveats.
The kit delays are not outrageous or something that could not be foreseen as happening. The quality of the kit however has been absolutely up to the standards that Vans has told us it would be.
As far as I'm concerned the Vans staff merely need keep up as they are doing and all will be well.
Last edited by n982sx : 03-19-2015 at 11:00 AM.
Reason: Clarity
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03-19-2015, 01:29 PM
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: Savannah
Posts: 806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDBoston
Scott is invaluable here in my opinion (Thanks, I search and read every one of your posts regardless of what forum they are in).
I am early enough in the build process in the grand scheme of things that I will not be waiting much for anything with the 14.
The main issue is really for Vans itself: MUCH more frequent updates are needed from the company on the progress or lack thereof and reasoning. Even a monthly or bi-monthly update would keep most of this at bay.
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This^^^^^^
Scott has provided an invaluable amount of support and information via this site. Sometimes even more than calling the mother ship due to the level of thoroughness he provides when addressing technical issues. It is obvious he cares and is trying to educate builders and help them build safe and quality aircraft.
Regarding the RV-14 delays....I never considered the -14 when it was introduced due to my incorrect perception that it was just a more expensive version of a -7. When I did get serious about starting a build last summer I had it narrowed down to the -7 and a two place high wing. After taking another look at the -7 and the -14, I decided that the -14 what what I really wanted for the many reasons I have posted here in the past. When I ordered the empennage and wing kits last June there was not very much information regarding kit release times or performance numbers. The kit availability information available at the time was very vauge and the verbal communication regarding release dates was hopes and promises that often got pushed to the right. I work for an aircraft OEM and even though I work in the Repair Station, I have been involved in development, prototyping and certification projects and I know how time consuming and difficult these evolutions can be. Having said that, the prototype/demo plane has been flying quite a while, and if the prototype was in fact built on production tooling I still have a hard time imagining what could possibly cause the kit release time delay that we have experianced. I know that all the complaining in the world will not speed up the process, but I too would like to see better communication regarding delivery times. Good news or bad, it would be nice to know for planning purposes.
Even given the delays, there is no other airplane that I would rather be building. The -14 is an amazing kit and an amazing airplane even before it ever leaves the ground. 
__________________
Mike Hammond
A&P IA PPL ASEL
RV-14A kit S/N 140170
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03-19-2015, 02:32 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Simpsonville, SC (SC47)
Posts: 312
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I would vote YES for more communication
i agree that more communication from directly from Vans regarding the RV14 kit release date status, build issues, what ever - especially after a bit of touting about how advanced and forward thinking the plane kit is, good, bad, or ugly would be helpful and welcome for lots of reasons.
? JDBoston > who is "invaluable Scott" ?
__________________
Jeff Warren
Simpsonville, SC (@SC47 > 10nm NW Triple Tree)
1946 Bellanca Cruisair 14-13-2 (73 YRS OLD 8/15/19)
RV14A (N14ZT), Ser#140195
Start 10/11/14
Dues paid 12/1/19 (USArmy 2/67-2/70)
www.mykitlog.com/jeffw@sc47
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03-19-2015, 02:34 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Boston Area
Posts: 284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffw@sc47
? JDBoston > who is "invaluable Scott" ?
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Scott McDaniels=Rvbuilder2002=invaluable resource on this forum 
__________________
Jeff
RV-14A
Status: Wings complete(ish), Working on: Empennage. Fuselage kit on order
Location:MA
http://vans14a.blogspot.com/
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03-19-2015, 03:22 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 612
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What would be a big help at this juncture would be this:
If Van's would just at least complete and offer 2 things to the current builders:
A landing gear kit, with wheels, and an engine mount kit. I'd be happy to pay shipping on that to get them here. If I had those components, it would allow me to do more work going ahead. I could mount the engine that I've had for a few months, and I could start outfitting the engine monitor and get my electronic ignition set up, and get all the accessories together. It's not that we need the whole kit, just some of the things that allow us to progress again.
I do think the RV-14 is a great kit. If anything, I think it's *too* great. It didn't take very long to create some of the parts on the RV-10. I didn't mind that. I know some really like that it's easy, and that's fine, but after building the RV-10 I can tell you that when it comes to the wings, empennage, and fuselage, while it's more refined, it isn't "leagues ahead" of what the RV-10 kit was. The -10 was actually pretty simple to build. The fiberglass took plenty of time, but the aluminum really wasn't bad at all.
Tim
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03-19-2015, 03:25 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002
This is totally not correct.
The very first built prototype (N214VA) was built using all computer designed and modeled parts, made on production tooling.
Any parts shipped in customer kits that had not been revised after that prototype had been built, are exactly the same as the parts in that airplane.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike H
Having said that, the prototype/demo plane has been flying quite a while, and if the prototype was in fact built on production tooling I still have a hard time imagining what could possibly cause the kit release time delay that we have experianced.
Even given the delays, there is no other airplane that I would rather be building. The -14 is an amazing kit and an amazing airplane even before it ever leaves the ground. 
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Note what I said in the highlighted quote above.
Actually, a lot of the design has been revised. And experienced builders know all to well the X10 rule... change one thing, it seems to influence required changes on 10 others.
Glad to hear you like the kit though Mike.
Regarding communication....
I can't speak for others (it is way out side of my level of responsibility), but I think there has developed a state of gun shyness.
With any update, anxious customers expect to also hear an estimate of when the next kit will be ready.
When previous estimates have missed the mark (sometimes by a lot), and it doesn't do much more than make people upset, I think there becomes a tendency to just not do it at all. Don't know for certain, but just a guess.
Having said that, I think there is effort underway to publish an update soon. Possibly with some progress photos of the tail dragger prototype which has been the test mule for a good part of the finish kit, and is getting very near completion.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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03-19-2015, 07:01 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Heber City, UT
Posts: 115
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Chillax
I feel bad that my original post has generated so much negativity.
I am glad (and so is my wife) that I will be able to get out of the hangar this summer.
Scott, keep up the good work!!
Looking forward to seeing the -14 at Sun-n-Fun.
__________________
Ken Heidorn,
Debur..Dimple..Rivet..Repeat...
"You're never too old to learn something stupid." - unknown
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03-19-2015, 08:23 PM
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: Savannah
Posts: 806
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Scott, will the -14A be at Zepyr hills before SNF to provide demos? I have never flown any of the Vans factory demos and I would love to get a ride in the -14A.
Also wondering if the tail wheel -14 will make it to the show?
I do very much understand how small changes often times cause lots of other changes to be required, which has a tendency to snowball. I really shouldn't complian, I have been working on the wings for 8 months and only have a few long days to go to finish up the details. Out of this 8 month period I have really only worked on it steady for a few short stints, or maybe 3 months time, and this includes the time to prep and epoxy paint the inside and outside of all the structure like the ou would expect to see in a production aircraft. I could have literally built the wings in half the time (6 weeks working steady on week nights) if it were not for the primer. So really at this point I doubt the factory will be holding me up since I still have the empennage and fuselage kit to build
__________________
Mike Hammond
A&P IA PPL ASEL
RV-14A kit S/N 140170
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