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03-09-2015, 06:54 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: berrien center, mi
Posts: 16
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huh?
I have to disagree with how this kit was represented. When the RV-14 was unveiled at Airventure 2012 I was told all slow build kits would be available by the end of 2013. But then Ken Krueger was still working there and might have something to do with this situation. Who knows?
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03-09-2015, 08:23 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drillr1
Who knows?
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I am one of many that know.
Ken still working at Van's would have had little if anything to do with the kit release time line. That was an estimate made by him at the time (wayyyyy optimistic in hind sight), but that is different from what is currently being discussed.
The kit was from the very start represented as being developed as a total package kit. That, and the time line that was estimated are two totally different subjects.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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03-09-2015, 02:48 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 612
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Although I can see that standard avionics packages may be attractive to Vans, I don't think that it's wise to allow it at ALL to delay the kit. There are so many personal preferences when it comes to panels, it's undoubtedly going to be the most customized and modified part of the plane. So I sure hope they're focusing on getting the finishing and FWF kits done, and if they want to continue working on a specific avionics package then, that's fine. But even if they offer a package, avionics change so rapidly I highly doubt Van's will want to keep up on the rapid changes as new products come to market. They should focus on their strengths, which is airframes, and if they want to build out their offerings, NOT do it at the expense of getting their primary product out the door. Having the delays like we're having with this kit is just shooting themselves in the foot.
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03-09-2015, 03:08 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Greenback, TN
Posts: 534
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Finishing kit
I would like say thank you to Vans for the quality of the 14 kit. As a first time builder, it has been a joyful stress free process. My entire family has joined in and that is my real goal for building this airplane. The kit delays have forced me to breath between kits and I even decided to take on the painting because I had free time. I am excited that there will be factory designed avionics kits. Following a professionally designed wiring kit will be a great learning experience. I most likely would not have taken on the avionics without the kit. I'm certain that when future avionics are available my confidence will have been enhanced by this kit and that will free me up to make the necessary changes. I bought a kit for the educational experience, I will have plenty of time to fly when it is completed and the confidence to make the future changes I desire without the cost of a certified mechanic. To me the value of E-AB is education and enjoyment.
Again, thanks for the well developed kit.
Marvin McGraw
__________________
Marvin McGraw, 5TN4
RV-14. #140039 Complete
Flight hours: 500+
2020 Dues Paid
The Dues Paid note is a reminder for me
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03-09-2015, 03:14 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimO
But even if they offer a package, avionics change so rapidly I highly doubt Van's will want to keep up on the rapid changes as new products come to market. They should focus on their strengths, which is airframes, and if they want to build out their offerings, NOT do it at the expense of getting their primary product out the door.
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Good idea! Which is why I previously wrote.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002
To a large extent, other principals are handling most of the development efforts on the avionics kits that will be offered.
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Other principles meaning.... avionics related company's.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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03-09-2015, 05:18 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Clarion, Pennsylvania
Posts: 550
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When I was building my RV-10 I got bogged down when I reached the wiring stage. The choices for power distribution and avionics just overwhelmed me. I am the first to admit that I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I spent at least six months on wiring, and much of that was scratching my head. I often thought to myself that it would be a good idea if a real engineer would have designed the electrical system, as opposed to my improvised efforts, and had serious RV-12 envy. In the end it turned out OK, with a few things that could have been done better, and I learned a lot, but if I build another airplane, I would welcome a professionally designed system. Again, I plead guilty to not being very smart, but an integrated approach to electrical systems offers great value to folks like me.
__________________
-Andy Turner
RV-10 N784JC
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03-14-2015, 07:56 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Simpsonville, SC (SC47)
Posts: 312
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Optimistic vs. Realistic
Most manufacturing businesses have at least Administration/Marketing and Operations wings. If you believe Admin/Marketing projections you are likely a very optimistic person. Operations (Engineering/Design, Manufacturing, Shipping) projections are probably more realistic. I have been fortunate enough to still be poking around for more than 67 years and tend to apply this observation to things I hear about anything that is going to happen in the future, especially if stated by business development representatives that have been blessed with magic kyrstal balls [no puns here]. Maintaining a thriving business operation is a delicate balance between maintaining growth (revenues) and satisfying demands (costs), Vans seems to be doing things right so far.
My dad used to always remind me that you can't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see, and to proceed accordingly.
__________________
Jeff Warren
Simpsonville, SC (@SC47 > 10nm NW Triple Tree)
1946 Bellanca Cruisair 14-13-2 (73 YRS OLD 8/15/19)
RV14A (N14ZT), Ser#140195
Start 10/11/14
Dues paid 12/1/19 (USArmy 2/67-2/70)
www.mykitlog.com/jeffw@sc47
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03-16-2015, 10:42 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Texas, Fort Worth
Posts: 1,237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffw@sc47
Most manufacturing businesses have at least Administration/Marketing and Operations wings. If you believe Admin/Marketing projections you are likely a very optimistic person. Operations (Engineering/Design, Manufacturing, Shipping) projections are probably more realistic. I have been fortunate enough to still be poking around for more than 67 years and tend to apply this observation to things I hear about anything that is going to happen in the future, especially if stated by business development representatives that have been blessed with magic kyrstal balls [no puns here]. Maintaining a thriving business operation is a delicate balance between maintaining growth (revenues) and satisfying demands (costs), Vans seems to be doing things right so far.
My dad used to always remind me that you can't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see, and to proceed accordingly.
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My all knowing crystal ball shows No Customer built RV14 will fly until 2016.  Jeff makes a lot of since! The normal rules of what one would expect in the retail world do not apply to the experimental world. It has its own time line. I went through this process being on the leading edge of the development of the RV12. It turned out well in the end. It maybe one of the most successful kits released thus far with 3.5 out of 5 kits completed. Released in April of 2008 over 350 are flying with more than 800 serial number issued, pretty good stats.  The all inclusive kit design has and will be a great success for Vans Aircraft.  Best thing I can say is everybody take a deep breath and go with the flow.  We will get there, what Vans is doing is very complicated and takes time.
__________________
John
RV12 N1212K
Flying Since June 2010
1020 Hours as of 9/30/2017
Johnrv12@icloud.com
RV14 Wing, arrived and building at Rdog's new Hanger at 16X
S/N 140014
Last edited by Jetguy : 03-16-2015 at 10:59 PM.
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03-17-2015, 12:57 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New Orleans, LA
Posts: 474
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Waiting on the Finishing Kit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetguy
My all knowing crystal ball shows No Customer built RV14 will fly until 2016.  Jeff makes a lot of since! The normal rules of what one would expect in the retail world do not apply to the experimental world.
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First of all, I am glad I chose this kit, I've had a ton of fun building it. However, opinions are like...., everyone has one and I am entitled to mine. When I decided to purchase this kit in Oct 2013, there was no mention of expecting delays, etc. The only information I had, was they were expecting about 1100-1200 hours to build it (on their website). There is no *** that says, only if we can get it out on schedule. So I took to my excel spreadsheet and figured it would take me about 2500 hours and came up with 2 years working at a steady pace. That would be this coming October for the mathematically challenged in the group. For others to say, I should not believe marketing and just believe production is not the point. When I put down my hard earned money to start this process, none of that was mentioned. Should I have known they had issues with the 12? I don't think so.
I have a wife that has been patient, so far. I'm now 57 and no spring chicken and I don't have another plane to fly in the meantime, so I am anxious to stick to my schedule which I thought was reasonable when I started this process and get this baby flying. I work a couple of hours every evening and usually 10 hours on Saturday and Sunday. I have paid an expert to come help me with some of the more difficult tasks and to keep me on my schedule. Had I known I was going to have all that extra time after the tail, I could have saved myself a couple grand.
So to all of you that think this is normal and I should not be disappointed, I'm sorry, but I am disappointed. Van's is a great company with lots of nice and helpful people, but I do believe this has given them their first black eye. I still love the product and am having fun, but I am finished the fuselage, just like I was the tail section. I waited 4 months to receive the fuselage after finishing the tail (I know others waited longer), I hope I don't have to wait that long. That would be 8 months in my build that was lost time. I didn't start this to have a 5 year project, I started this to build an airplane that I could reasonably fly in 2 years. At least I thought that was the case.
__________________
Stoney
First RV-14 Flight 04/17/2016
Serial #140087, N214SW - Sold
Last edited by jswareiv : 03-17-2015 at 01:02 PM.
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03-18-2015, 10:00 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 612
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All I can say is that when I built the RV-10, I was at the front of the pack for getting it built, yet the kits generally flowed in with enough time to keep me busy. I had a short delay because I ordered a QB fuse, which did have me sitting idle for a little bit, but I went from start to finish in 25 months, and I had at least 2 months where I didn't do any work. I finished the plane being maybe the 20-something'th flying in the RV-10 group. That kit has a lot more actual work involved in the process than the RV-14 does. I don't know what they did differently back when they had the RV-10 kits built, but be it supplier issues, or in house issues, the RV-14 isn't keeping pace with the 10. If it were, I'd be flying shortly. I didn't work on the kit from April to October in 2013, and yet the kit is the hold up. Even the amount of time I kicked the cars out of the garage for is much longer.
I think the kit's great. The company has great people. But something strange is happening with the process this time, because this isn't like them. Especially when we've heard that "much of the XYZ123 (next future kit) work was done when the previous kit was engineered"....it seems that this should mean that things come faster.
I should hope that I can order the FWF kit within 1-2 months tops of getting the finishing kit ordered (not delivered, ordered), so that we can finally wrap this thing up. I'm not buying any more wiring related items, and my avionics are all here, so I just need to mount the engine/gear and fit the cowl and canopy, and wrap up the FWF and then it's time to fly.
Tim
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