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  #11  
Old 02-19-2015, 09:24 PM
sjarrell sjarrell is offline
 
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I'll just add my 2 cents worth here by copying an email that I sent to Garmin a few weeks ago regarding the autopilot altitude "feature". I would REALLY like to see an improvement in this area of the system.

***

Thanks for the response. Let me start by saying that the #1 reason I bought Garmin over the competition after visiting Oshkosh last year was that Garmin has done a GREAT job competing in the GA market on every front..... speed of innovation, product, and most of all exceptional customer service. To me that's amazing for a company like Garmin! You guys have shown that you have the flexibility to vastly improve on the functionality of Garmin's certificated avionics with your GA products.

My new panel has a pair of G3X Touch GDUs, a GTN 650, SL30, GTX330ES and a TruTrak Sorcerer autopilot (you can see before and after pictures of the panel on the VAF forum here.) I'm not new to TAA aircraft or coupled autopilots. Most of my flying has been behind the G1000 in my previous Bonanza G36 and a C172, GRT, and most recently Chelton EFISs so I'm not a rookie when it comes to glass panels, integrated autopilots and their functionality.

Coming from a G1000 background I completely understand that Garmin is following the logic and procedures from G1000 in the G3X with the AP vertical speed interface. Let's face it..... compared to the G3X the G1000 has a terrible user interface (IMO of course) and many of the ways that it functions are very unintuitive, overly complicated and simply aren't logical. Garmin's GA products must (and in many, many cases have) move past the limitations of the G1000.

While I understand the "pros" of not "chasing the altitude bug", the cons FAR outweigh the pros, and the cons can be easily overcome as they have been with some of your competitor's products. Consider the following. Let's talk about simply descending to a designated altitude in IFR where the autopilot is the most critical. Then I'll address the VNAV (VFR) profiles.

ALTITUDE SELECT - IFR

1. I'm being vectored for an ILS approach in turbulence at 7000 ft. and I receive the following clearance.... "84VC, turn left heading 230, descend and maintain 5000 ft."

I repeat the clearance then turn the heading bug to 230. Very easy. The aircraft starts to turn to 230 (hmmmm. I didn't have to tell it the rate of turn because that's a default.... that's good!.) Then I have to set the altitude....

a) with the GRT and Chelton EFIS I simply press and ALT button to indicate that I'm changing altitude, then turn the knob to adjust the altitude bug to 5000 (which I can do almost without looking) and that's it. With AFS it's even easier.... I just change the altitude bug.

I understand the Dynon forces the pilot to also select not only the altitude, but also the vertical speed each time an altitude change is needed. With all due respect, I think both Garmin and Dynon should rethink this logic. What now takes 5 steps....touching the screen in turbulence three times, twisting knobs twice and covering the approach plate could be replaced by simply turning the left knob.

OR....

b) With the G3X Touch (the G1000 with the GFC700 is is almost as bad but with its physical buttons it's a little easier in turbulence than trying to touch the right position on a touch screen)

i) TURN the altitude knob to set the altitude

ii) while bouncing around, TOUCH the AP box on the screen (not easy in turbulence)

iii) TOUCH VS (not easy in turbulence)

NOTE - AS SOON AS I DO THIS THE AP INTERFACE COVERS THE APPROACH PLATE THAT I'M SUPPOSED TO BE VIEWING!

iv) TWIST the right knob to set the vertical speed while watching the really small vertical speed numbers (Note.... my DEFAULT vertical speeds RARELY change, especially if I'm in IFR conditions!)

v) TOUCH somewhere else on the screen to dismiss the AP box so you can see your original screen

Items ii-v are not only time consuming in a critical time, they also require you to take your eyes off of the flight instruments and distract you from the other things you need to be thinking about. When the controller tells you to change your altitude, in single pilot IFR your should literally be able to do so with your eyes closed if you have a good autopilot and user interface on your EFIS!

With the G1000 with the GFC700 for single pilot IFR this is marginally better due to the physical push buttons but it's still unnecessarily complex, distracting and time consuming. Even with the physical buttons I'd argue that there's still a LOT of "monkey motion" involved simply to change altitudes.

These "set the altitude then set the vertical speed or airspeed before anything happens" procedures were no doubt conceived in cockpits having the luxury of two pilots. Using a touch screen, IMO for IFR in any type of turbulence this renders the G3X Touch virtually useless. At best it's a distraction and I'm forced to turn off the autopilot when I need it most to avoid having to go through steps ii-v above each time I get an altitude change.

VNAV (VFR)

Now let's talk about VNAV..... Let's refer to the video that you referenced earlier here.

The G3X Touch follows the G1000 / GFC700 steps which arw unintuitive, confusing and overly complicated. These steps are.....

i) Set up a VNAV profile and enter into the G3X Touch (or G1000) everything it needs for the descent (my destination altitude, location and how fast I want to descend to get there.)

ii) BUT, I have to set my VNAV altitude BELOW where I really want to be, THEN set my altitude bug to where I ACTUALLY want to be

iii) Then, remember to arm the VNAV profile, THEN arm the VNAV profile.

Why does this need to be so confusing and time consuming to setup (other than that's the way that the G1000 works???) To me this is WAY overly complicated considering that you've already entered everything you need for your VNAV descent.

Why not instead...

i) create a VNAV profile and load it from the same screen (not unlike loading an arrival procedure.)

ii) within x miles or minutes (say 3 miles or minutes, or even better, user defined times or miles) have the G3X prompt "VNAV Profile - 500ft per minute descent to 1000 ft AGL 3 miles before KGSP - Activate - Cancel?" If you activate, let it change the desired altitude to whatever you've already put in the VNAV, and use the vertical speed that you've also already entered.

SUGGESTIONS RECAP -

1. Vertical Speed Default - Give us the ability to set our default ascending and descending vertical speeds (or even just one speed would be fine.) When we twist the altitude knob, use those defaults. In the rare instance that we want to change them for a particular approach, we can do so from the AP interface. Alternately, just let us touch the vertical speed bar to set one default vertical speed, and if someone wants it to work like it does now they could set their default speed to 0. Want to bet how many would set their vertical speed to 0?

2. VNAV - Let the VNAV announce that it's nearing it's activation point, and if we choose to activate let it automatically set the vertical speed and the destination altitude to what we've already entered. One click on the screen should be all that's required.

Thanks for your consideration. I look forward to the innovations that your team incorporates into your GA products in the future, and I wish you the very best. If I can be of any help, including beta testing, please don't hesitate to contact me. Keep up the good work!

Best regards,

Steve Jarrell
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  #12  
Old 02-20-2015, 09:11 AM
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avionicsr avionicsr is offline
 
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Default Altitude Functionality

I personally like the present G3X altitude functionality on the autopilot. Particularly during an approach. If I'm being vectored on an approach that starts at 1700', with missed approach instructions to climb runway heading to 2000', I can do the following:

Use the autopilot to descend to 1700'.
Once at 1700, I can change my altitude bug to 2000' in preparation for the missed approach
With the current logic, the autopilot will not "chase" the change to 2000'
I can then couple to the to the approach.
I can descend through the approach, and should I go missed, I can just use my TOGA switch, and when I have time set a VS back to the preselect 2000'
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  #13  
Old 02-20-2015, 03:42 PM
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dynonsupport dynonsupport is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjarrell View Post
I understand the Dynon forces the pilot to also select not only the altitude, but also the vertical speed each time an altitude change is needed. With all due respect, I think both Garmin and Dynon should rethink this logic. What now takes 5 steps....touching the screen in turbulence three times, twisting knobs twice and covering the approach plate could be replaced by simply turning the left knob.
With the SkyView Autopilot, the workflow depends how you're using it. First, there's a simplified mode that omits some of the more IFR-centric scenarios like the capability to pre-select an altitude and the ability to capture an approach. But, it does let you spin in either a GPS ground TRK or new altitude with the ALT knob and you're off at whatever the default vertical speed is (climb/descent are independently-selectable).

If you're using expert mode - which you would if you either have the SV-AP-PANEL and/or want to shoot approaches - you do need to select the altitude and THEN command the change via a nose up/down command (essentially a VS change). One way we've tried to shorten this process is by have having default climb and descent vertical speeds that take effect upon the first press of NOSE UP / NOSE DOWN. Leave them set at 100fpm and you'd need to press the button a few times to get what you're after. But, set the defaults to say 500fpm, and the first press of either button will jump the VS to that value (subsequent presses adjust by the hundreds). So, expert mode well-configured takes a spin of the alt knob and a single button press on nose up or nose down to start an altitude change. We do this so that people that want to set up their next target - perhaps for a step-down or a missed approach - can do that as the poster avionicsr above describes.

I definitely realize that what some of you would like to see is something in the middle of our two modes: We're a little hesitant to create too many UI/UX permutations and options: subdle things start to break in the workflows. But we definitely listen to the feedback, and this isn't the first time this wish has been voiced. Thanks for the thoughts.

Michael Schofield
Marketing Manager
Dynon Avionics
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  #14  
Old 02-20-2015, 05:30 PM
sjarrell sjarrell is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avionicsr View Post
.....
With the current logic, the autopilot will not "chase" the change to 2000'
I can then couple to the to the approach.
I can descend through the approach, and should I go missed, I can just use my TOGA switch, and when I have time set a VS back to the preselect 2000'
I understand completely, however, wouldn't it make sense to have a default climb and descent vertical speed that you could set, and when you press the VS button if the altitude that you have selected is higher than your present position seed the speed with your default climb speed, and if it's lower seed it with your default descent speed?

From Dynon's previous post that seems to be what they've done with their nose up or nose down function. No reason that it couldn't be done for both nose up/down and VS. My point is that 99% of the time I use the same climb and descent speeds and I shouldn't have to re-select them every time I change altitudes with the autopilot whether I'm using the "delayed" ascent or descent or "chasing the altitude bug."

Best regards,
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  #15  
Old 02-20-2015, 10:32 PM
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ColoRv ColoRv is offline
 
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I've been flying behind the G3X (non touch) for a year now. The autopilot operation is second nature after you've used it a couple times. Muscle memory kicks in and you don't really think about it anymore. No complaints here.
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  #16  
Old 02-21-2015, 06:53 AM
Tnikkel5 Tnikkel5 is offline
 
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From an IFR standpoint I would not like "chasing the bug" I like to preselect altitudes then tell it how I want to get there either vnav or vs. It would be nice if the vs was set at 500 ftpm bc most of the time that's what it is. Then also you adjust after by just 1 or 2 clicks if you wanted 600 or 700ftpm.
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  #17  
Old 02-28-2015, 03:11 PM
sneedrv-6 sneedrv-6 is offline
 
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Brantel,

What do you mean by:

#3. The flight log works fine in my airplane. Sounds like a config issue with the timing.


How do you get into the config for the flight log? Not sure what you mean by timing?
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  #18  
Old 02-28-2015, 03:51 PM
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Brantel Brantel is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneedrv-6 View Post
Brantel,

What do you mean by:

#3. The flight log works fine in my airplane. Sounds like a config issue with the timing.


How do you get into the config for the flight log? Not sure what you mean by timing?
Timing as in tach time vs Hobbs time vs flight time. There are config settings for the engine that determins how tach time is totaled.
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  #19  
Old 04-07-2015, 11:18 AM
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Brantel Brantel is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneedrv-6 View Post
6. With most airport bound aircraft we don't really care about user waypoints, but in a bush plane in Nevada, Utah, and Idaho pretty much everyplace we land is a user waypoint. I probably have 100 user waypoints in my g3x touch and I spent a bunch of time sitting in the plane inputing them. I could not believe it when I heard you can not import or export user waypoints. I know you can export them if you make a flight plan and include all your user waypoints but in order to accomplish this you would have to write the names of all the waypoints down on paper, then create a flight plan and search for each user waypoint and add it to the flight plan. At the very least maybe gamin could add and button that says add all user waypoints to current flight plan. Hopefully in the future we will be able to import and export user waypoints to an sd card.
Looks like TeamX heard your request:

Changes made from version 3.50 to 3.60:
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Add import/export options to user waypoint list page
SNIP
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