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02-07-2015, 07:32 AM
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: KBVY Massachusetts
Posts: 1,100
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Buying used - Scary thoughts
As I'm actively looking for an RV-4 (or -8), and arranging Pre-Buys, I pay particular attention to the articles here that describe "interesting and exciting" discoveries people have made when looking over their newly bought, used, airplane.
Just this week we see this:
http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...d.php?t=122400
"a major malfunction on our right wing spar where it stabs into the fuse. It appears that during the original construction of the spar, someone took it upon their self to grind a piece off of two of the lower leaf sections that make up the lower portion of the spar thus compromising the critical bolt edge distance. We contacted Vans and they said plain and simply "not airworthy""
And a few weeks back, someone bought an RV-4 that had been sitting around for a a while. He decided to do a thourough breakdown and inspection of the airplane and saw this:
http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...+edge+distance
I don't know about the former but the latter example could not be seen unless you removed the wings.
Scary things.
Build quality is a crucial issue of course. And we all know "caveat emptor".
But just how much can one inspect during a Pre-Buy to get a notion if the wings will stay on?
The above issues makes me think of only considering Quick Built airplanes. Even then there are no guarantees.
How do we minimize the risk?
__________________
Flying RV-8 N880BC
2019 Dues - happily paid.
Last edited by Saville : 02-07-2015 at 07:56 AM.
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02-07-2015, 07:52 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Estes Park, CO
Posts: 3,947
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Pre buy
Some spots can't be seen but a pre buy from a skilled RV experienced AP will expose a lot.
Personally, I would review the builder logs. I'm sure there are perfect builders and it would show in the final product, but for most of us, mistakes are inevitable. Finding them and reading how they were resolved will tell you a lot about the rest of the plane.
__________________
Larry Larson
Estes Park, CO
http://wirejockrv7a.blogspot.com
wirejock at yahoo dot com
Donated 12/03/2019, plus a little extra.
RV-7A #73391, N511RV reserved (2,000+ hours)
HS SB, empennage, tanks, wings, fuse, working finishing kit
Disclaimer
I cannot be, nor will I be, held responsible if you try to do the same things I do and it does not work and/or causes you loss, injury, or even death in the process.
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02-07-2015, 08:16 AM
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Ga
Posts: 662
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Used
Buying used is a big risk. Sometimes the logs aren't good enough. A pre-buy by some who know where to look can help reduce the risk but sometimes even they can miss stuff if it's hidden well. I bought a kit that had a hole buggered up on the spar that was hidden behind the head of a rivet. I found it after the going thought the wing replacing "backward" installed ribs (another story). Thankfully, working with Vans engineering folks I have been able to satisfactorly repair the issues but it's taken a lot of time.
Just remember one thing, a lot of folks will say "hey it's experimental, I can do what I want". Your job is to find out if the builder has this mentality. If so, tread lightly.
__________________
Craig
RV-3 Sold
RV-4 Sold
RV-6a Sold
RV-9 IO-360 CS, Built and Flying
Aerostar 600A, Family Hotrod
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02-07-2015, 08:27 AM
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: KBVY Massachusetts
Posts: 1,100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grubbat
Buying used is a big risk. Sometimes the logs aren't good enough. A pre-buy by some who know where to look can help reduce the risk but sometimes even they can miss stuff if it's hidden well. I bought a kit that had a hole buggered up on the spar that was hidden behind the head of a rivet. I found it after the going thought the wing replacing "backward" installed ribs (another story). Thankfully, working with Vans engineering folks I have been able to satisfactorly repair the issues but it's taken a lot of time.
Just remember one thing, a lot of folks will say "hey it's experimental, I can do what I want". Your job is to find out if the builder has this mentality. If so, tread lightly.
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Thanks.
I guess one way to discover that Mentality is if there ARE builder logs and if they've been kept meticulously
__________________
Flying RV-8 N880BC
2019 Dues - happily paid.
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02-07-2015, 08:35 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 40
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Something to think about! People are different, some will look at work that very nicely and others will see details and errors that make it not of interest to buy the project or plane..
__________________
RV enthusiast Helge Dypdalen -"dypen". EAA Chapter 573 Norway -member. Cessna 182S LN-EDB -flying. Van's RV-7 -planning to build. "Ready to Build?"
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02-07-2015, 08:39 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
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Also keep in mind that people have different strengths. The structure may be a flawless work of art, but the wiring an absolute rats nest...
We tend to focus on primary structure, but thankfully really egregious mistakes are pretty rare. Fuel and electrical systems mistakes are far more common however. Poor systems installation can bring an airplane down just as quickly as a broken spar.
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
______________
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
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02-07-2015, 08:47 AM
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: KBVY Massachusetts
Posts: 1,100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobuilder
Also keep in mind that people have different strengths. The structure may be a flawless work of art, but the wiring an absolute rats nest...
We tend to focus on primary structure, but thankfully really egregious mistakes are pretty rare. Fuel and electrical systems mistakes are far more common however. Poor systems installation can bring an airplane down just as quickly as a broken spar.
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Yes as you say a bad fuel system will bring a plane down. But at least you have a chance to glide in. And there's less (not zero - just less) hidden stuff with systems (plumbing, wiring, flight controls) and in the engine.
__________________
Flying RV-8 N880BC
2019 Dues - happily paid.
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02-07-2015, 09:39 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saville
As I'm actively looking for an RV-4 (or -8), and arranging Pre-Buys, I pay particular attention to the articles here that describe "interesting and exciting" discoveries people have made when looking over their newly bought, used, airplane.
Just this week we see this:
http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...d.php?t=122400
"a major malfunction on our right wing spar where it stabs into the fuse. It appears that during the original construction of the spar, someone took it upon their self to grind a piece off of two of the lower leaf sections that make up the lower portion of the spar thus compromising the critical bolt edge distance. We contacted Vans and they said plain and simply "not airworthy""
And a few weeks back, someone bought an RV-4 that had been sitting around for a a while. He decided to do a thourough breakdown and inspection of the airplane and saw this:
http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...+edge+distance
I don't know about the former but the latter example could not be seen unless you removed the wings.
Scary things.
Build quality is a crucial issue of course. And we all know "caveat emptor".
But just how much can one inspect during a Pre-Buy to get a notion if the wings will stay on?
The above issues makes me think of only considering Quick Built airplanes. Even then there are no guarantees.
How do we minimize the risk?
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Actually both of those issues could have been detected by someone experienced with the RV-4 during a very thorough prebuy inspection. Not necessarily in absolute detail, but they would be able to see that something is not right and recommend the buyer pass, or at least look even deeper.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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02-07-2015, 09:47 AM
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: KBVY Massachusetts
Posts: 1,100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002
Actually both of those issues could have been detected by someone experienced with the RV-4 during a very thorough prebuy inspection. Not necessarily in absolute detail, but they would be able to see that something is not right and recommend the buyer pass, or at least look even deeper.
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Interesting. In the thread I asked if the extra hole in the latter issue could be seen during a pre-Buy and the answer was no because the part with the extra hole slide in between two others - one fore and one aft.
__________________
Flying RV-8 N880BC
2019 Dues - happily paid.
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02-07-2015, 12:06 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sherwood, Oregon
Posts: 981
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Fifteen or so years ago as I was building my RV-6a and had some idea of how an aircraft should be built, a partner and I decided we should buy an RV so as to be able to fly while building. We looked at a number that were for sale. About a third were turned down for issues that made us wonder how they got approved in the first place. This went from crappy build quality to downright dangerous defects. My favorite was the one whose rudder hinge bolts had no nuts. I pointed this out to the owner and watched him apply the fix. Scary. We finally bought one out of FL we were very happy with, just a few minor issues.
I would advise OP to have an inspection party with as many local builders as possible and hope their findings and opinions don't vary that much. I believe an awful lot can be indicated by the overall build quality and attention to detail that should be apparent.
If you can find a really competent DAR like Gary Brown (on this forum) it could be more spendy, but hey it's only your life.
HTH, YMMV
__________________
Jerry Cochran
Sherwood, Oregon
RV-7a 707DD Bot from David Domeier 12/01/11
Lycoming IO-360 Catto 3 blade Panel upgrade in progress
RV6a 18XP 1st flite 03/21/07 sold to Dale Walter 10/22/2011
Superior IO-360, Hartzell Blended, GRT/Dynon
Happily "autopaying" DR
"Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself."
Mark Twain
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