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  #41  
Old 01-28-2015, 12:42 PM
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Walt Walt is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan View Post
"Replace AN5 bolt on holding nose gear strut to engine mount". Period.
This is what you advocated at the beginning of this tread and really what started this whole mess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan View Post
Walt, I agree that the mindset you describe is unproductive and I hope you do not think that is what I have been advancing. I also agree that if I was purchasing an RV, a logbook with only one entry per year would indeed raise red flags. But it would be legal.

Having said all this, the RV-6 I built and have been flying for 16 years has a good set of records. When the engine was rebuilt the A&P and I discussed this situation and decided it would be in my best interest for future sale of the aircraft to include a comprehensive recording of the work performed and all the yellow tags. But that was at my discretion, not because it was required by regulation.

Please don't assume that just because I have attempted to explore the regs that govern our aircraft, and because I may have speared a few sacred cows that I am advocating sloppy record keeping or an attitude of cutting corners.
But now you say you don't really advocate this, and in any case don't actually follow the advice you gave to others, I'm confused
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Last edited by Walt : 01-28-2015 at 12:47 PM.
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  #42  
Old 01-28-2015, 01:13 PM
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ChiefPilot ChiefPilot is offline
 
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This has been a great discussion - thanks to everyone!

So I finally closed out the books on my condition inspection last night. I think I'll refrain on sharing what I ended up doing since there would likely be bricks flying in from some corners of the room

In all seriousness, I ended up logging a minimal amount in the log books not because I was trying to save time but because I had written most all the activities down on the condition inspection checklist (which is 10 pages in length, with spaces for notes on each page). The actual entry for the taper pin was along the lines of "Removed prop, engine, and mount. Replaced AN5 bolt securing nose strut to engine mount with AN 4-13 taper pin. Reinstalled engine mount and engine. Replaced alternator belt with NAPA Part 16350, then reinstalled prop. Run up and leak check ok."

There's lots more information in the maintenance records, which include the condition inspection checklist and notes. That the maintenance records include more than just the log books was something I think I knew but had forgotten.
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  #43  
Old 01-28-2015, 01:21 PM
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jthocker jthocker is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila View Post
I don't really want to over-interpret the regs...

I just wish it was more defined in writing somewhere - especially since it affects so many owners now the EAB group is getting larger year by year...
Gil,
I spent 3 hours yesterday trying to find a logical sequence in the regs to backup my argument. It is extremely confusing to go back and forth, and I finally gave up. I kept getting pulled back to the one you cited. I knew there was a reason it didn't apply, I just couldn't find it quickly. I'm not interested in looking any further, but I will ask my FAA guy when I see him again.
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  #44  
Old 01-28-2015, 01:29 PM
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Sam Buchanan Sam Buchanan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefPilot View Post
This has been a great discussion - thanks to everyone!

So I finally closed out the books on my condition inspection last night. I think I'll refrain on sharing what I ended up doing since there would likely be bricks flying in from some corners of the room

In all seriousness, I ended up logging a minimal amount in the log books not because I was trying to save time but because I had written most all the activities down on the condition inspection checklist (which is 10 pages in length, with spaces for notes on each page). The actual entry for the taper pin was along the lines of "Removed prop, engine, and mount. Replaced AN5 bolt securing nose strut to engine mount with AN 4-13 taper pin. Reinstalled engine mount and engine. Replaced alternator belt with NAPA Part 16350, then reinstalled prop. Run up and leak check ok."

There's lots more information in the maintenance records, which include the condition inspection checklist and notes. That the maintenance records include more than just the log books was something I think I knew but had forgotten.
Brad, I'm only going to toss a rocking chair cushion at you!

I think your log entry is very reasonable. Hope the nosegear gremlin has now been exorcised from your plane. Enjoy!
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  #45  
Old 01-28-2015, 07:43 PM
Scott Hersha Scott Hersha is offline
 
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I've followed this thread and I agree with what Jon and Sam has said. I've had the same FAA Inspector as Jon has, and reiterate what he has told all of us in southwestern Ohio. Signed logbook entries are required for condition inspections, or modifications to your original aircraft that would require re-entering phase I, such as replacing your Lycoming with a Subaru engine. Any other general maintenance or repair doesn't require a signed logbook entry for non-type certificated aircraft. He does recommend UNSIGNED logbook entries for routine maintenance, such as oil changes, or tire replacement, but this is just a good idea for continuity and it's not required.

If the only reason for making detailed and unnecessary logbook entries is to enhance resale, I guess I would have to question your reasons for building in the first place. We are not supposed to replace Cessna and Beechcraft in our endeavor to build airplanes. It's supposed to be for our own education and enjoyment. That is the essence of EAB. It's also why we are not required to keep such extensive records. We are not trying to protect the innocent buying public like the certified builders are, because that isn't who we are building our airplanes for....... right?
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  #46  
Old 01-29-2015, 05:28 AM
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For amateur built aircraft, this subject of logbook entries is covered very well. Your Operating Limitations specify what logbook entries and/or any specific task within the FARs that need to be complied with, as specified in FAA Order 8130.2G, paragraph 4104. Paragraphs 9, 22 & 23 are the ones I have chosen that are more specific to the task that are required for continued airworthiness after Phase 1.

14 CFR Part 43 paragraphs 9 & 11 which covers the contents of what should be contained within logbook entries IS NOT applicable to Amateur Built aircraft. Paragraph 43.1 is very clear and supports what I have said.

The "Feelings" of what should be documented should be stated as such versus making them seem Regulatory.

Personally when I'm complying with an annual on a certified aircraft I do review the logbooks for a historical record, but it is my flashlight and mirror that I'm more concerned with while accomplishing the inspection. I have seen "pretty" logbooks on aircraft that I would not put my name in.

If I have misstated something or overlooked a reference please correct me and provide the reference to the regulation I missed for my own future knowledge.
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  #47  
Old 01-29-2015, 05:56 AM
BillL BillL is offline
 
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Default Fantastic Discussion . . . of Titans!

This thread really shows that this forum and the professionalism of the members with very different backgrounds and experiences can have a reasonable discussion with differing, seemingly clashing, points of view.

Sam, Walt, John, and Gil - - thanks particularly for bringing particular points of view to light for us to think about. Sometimes there are clear cut answers, many times not. I know we (forum and industry novices) would always like a black and white answer, but many things deserve discussion to understand the complexity and the simplicity at the same time.

Having served in managing many engineers that worked with many union personnel to complete projects, I found it daunting to step on both sides of the fuzzy lines of "rules" , "intent" and "guidelines". Everybody wanted no rules, (at times) and be allowed to use their judgement instead, then when an unpleasant event occurred, even those of us who wanted to avoid "rules" were magnetically drawn into that line of discussion. It always took differing points of view to see the whole picture.

Throwing out the "rulebook" (Experimental) often leads to the same discussions that resulted in developing the "rules" (certified world). It is refreshing that we can do that and still get along. Imagine the same discussions within the FAA, and yet we still have the experimental category. Those must be some very interesting meetings . . .

Thanks !!
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  #48  
Old 01-29-2015, 09:59 AM
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az_gila az_gila is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis View Post
For amateur built aircraft, this subject of logbook entries is covered very well. Your Operating Limitations specify what logbook entries and/or any specific task within the FARs that need to be complied with, as specified in FAA Order 8130.2G, paragraph 4104. Paragraphs 9, 22 & 23 are the ones I have chosen that are more specific to the task that are required for continued airworthiness after Phase 1.

14 CFR Part 43 paragraphs 9 & 11 which covers the contents of what should be contained within logbook entries IS NOT applicable to Amateur Built aircraft. Paragraph 43.1 is very clear and supports what I have said.

The "Feelings" of what should be documented should be stated as such versus making them seem Regulatory.

Personally when I'm complying with an annual on a certified aircraft I do review the logbooks for a historical record, but it is my flashlight and mirror that I'm more concerned with while accomplishing the inspection. I have seen "pretty" logbooks on aircraft that I would not put my name in.

If I have misstated something or overlooked a reference please correct me and provide the reference to the regulation I missed for my own future knowledge.
Thank you.

In 40+ posts that is the first one that actually gives useful references to FAA documents...

The only question I would have remaining is if this Op Limitation overrides the ones you reference..

(1) No person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose of meeting the
requirements of 14 CFR ? 91.319(b) during phase I flight testing, and for recreation and
education after meeting these requirements as stated in the program letter (required by
14 CFR ? 21.193) for this aircraft. In addition, this aircraft must be operated in accordance with
applicable air traffic and general operating rules of 14 CFR part 91 and all additional limitations
herein prescribed under the provisions of 14 CFR ? 91.319(i). These operating limitations are a
part of FAA Form 8130-7, and are to be carried in the aircraft at all times and be available to the
pilot in command of the aircraft.



But this is a much closer discussion....

Again, I'm still surprised the EAA hasn't helped all of the builders/owners out on this one that affects so many aircraft.
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  #49  
Old 01-30-2015, 02:08 AM
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Gil,

The paragraph you referenced is paragraph 1 of the Order I referenced. I didn't compare them word for word on my iPad but they looked the same.

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