VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics


Go Back   VAF Forums > Main > RV General Discussion/News
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-26-2015, 11:14 AM
ChiefPilot's Avatar
ChiefPilot ChiefPilot is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1,565
Default The most confusing thing about replacing the nose gear bolt...

With my condition inspection almost completed, I'm down to the most confusing part. The log book entries.

Here's the deal. I took this opportunity to address the nose gear bolt issue by replacing said bolt with a taper pin. Doing so necessitated the removal of the prop, engine, and engine mount from the airframe so that the hole could be drilled and reamed accurately. Everything was then put back together again at which point the FWF portion of the inspection was done, engine run-up and leak checked, and so on.

I'm not quite sure how to document this in the log. One way would be to simply log something like "Replace AN5 bolt on holding nose gear strut to engine mount" and the opposite extreme would be to detail the whole process. I'm leaning more towards the first end of the spectrum, but am interested in others thoughts.

What do you think?
__________________
Brad Benson, Maplewood MN.
RV-6A N164BL, Flying since Nov 2012!
If you're not making mistakes, you're probably not making anything
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-26-2015, 12:02 PM
fixnflyguy fixnflyguy is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Winston-Salem, N.C.
Posts: 1,213
Default Document,document..

In the certified aircraft world, it is absolute must to document the whole process. As an AP/IA, even on my own RV-4 , I would do the full documentation, including leak/systems checks. Besides the "undocumented maintenance" scenario, it just keeps all your records correct and detailed. If you are the builder, acting under your acquired repairmans certificate, your maintenance should be documented in the same basic format as an A/P would use. If you were to later sell, or task an A/P to take over your maintenance, a detailed log would be much better than a "one line" type entry. I am personally involved with maintaining/inspecting several RV's that were not built by their current owners, and while they can work on them, I definitely want to know and see documentation of what they perform.
__________________
Bill E.
RV-4/N76WE
8A7 / Advance NC
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-26-2015, 12:23 PM
Sam Buchanan's Avatar
Sam Buchanan Sam Buchanan is offline
been here awhile
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 4,301
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefPilot View Post

I'm not quite sure how to document this in the log. One way would be to simply log something like "Replace AN5 bolt on holding nose gear strut to engine mount" and the opposite extreme would be to detail the whole process. I'm leaning more towards the first end of the spectrum, but am interested in others thoughts.

What do you think?
Because you have the Repairman's Certificate (which means you are the builder):

"Replace AN5 bolt on holding nose gear strut to engine mount". Period.
__________________
Sam Buchanan
RV-6
Fokker D.VII replica

Last edited by Sam Buchanan : 01-26-2015 at 01:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-26-2015, 01:21 PM
Andrew M's Avatar
Andrew M Andrew M is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Secluded Lake,Alaska (AK49)
Posts: 359
Default Depends

Who was the last documented engine installer?
I don't care to much for people who shortcut the paperwork. It leaves me exposed.
"Gained access by removing engine....Replaced bolt, restored access." record that first, then the inspection. The inspection checklist should cover the installation. If it doesn't, record all the work. This is a legal document. We are left alone to make these entries, because as a group of people, we do it right. I would hate to see what the FAA would put on us if they decide we can't be trusted to do it right.
__________________
Andrew Miller
A&P, IA
-9 empennage
Wings arrived 12 JAN 13
https://plus.google.com/photos/11360...J-TuJPsmOONzQE
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-26-2015, 01:31 PM
Walt's Avatar
Walt Walt is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 5,686
Default

Absolutely agree with the above comments!!!
This is how I would do it, something like:

"removed prop, engine and engine mount to access nose gear leg retainer bolt. Reamed upper nose gear leg bolt hole and engine mount for installation of taper pin, installed pin. Re-installed engine mount, engine and prop. Accomplished ground runs, leak checks and systems operational checks with no discrepancies noted."
__________________
Walt Aronow, DFW, TX (52F)

EXP Aircraft Services LLC
Specializing in RV Condition Inspections, Maintenance, Avionics Upgrades
Dynamic Prop Balancing, Pitot-Static Altmeter/Transponder Certification
FAA Certified Repair Station, AP/IA/FCC GROL, EAA Technical Counselor
Authorized Garmin G3X Dealer/Installer
RV7A built 2004, 1700+ hrs, New Titan IO-370, Bendix Mags
Website: ExpAircraft.com, Email: walt@expaircraft.com, Cell: 972-746-5154
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-26-2015, 01:50 PM
larrynew's Avatar
larrynew larrynew is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: In New Braunfels, ist das Leben schön!
Posts: 871
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post
This is how I would do it...
Walt and Andrew,
Thanks for the examples. Do you know a source for sample maintenance entries? I'd love to see a one page sheet with a bunch of typical entries I could copy and modify.
__________________
Larry New
RV-7A - Built, flying 900+ hrs
RV-10 - Built, flying 2.9 hrs
??? - RV-12, Subsonex
48 States in 7 Days!
VAF Paid - Annual Autodraft
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-26-2015, 03:11 PM
Sam Buchanan's Avatar
Sam Buchanan Sam Buchanan is offline
been here awhile
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 4,301
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew M View Post
Who was the last documented engine installer?
I don't care to much for people who shortcut the paperwork. It leaves me exposed.
"Gained access by removing engine....Replaced bolt, restored access." record that first, then the inspection. The inspection checklist should cover the installation. If it doesn't, record all the work. This is a legal document. We are left alone to make these entries, because as a group of people, we do it right. I would hate to see what the FAA would put on us if they decide we can't be trusted to do it right.
Not making a log entry that isn't required per regs is not "shortcutting the paperwork". As long as the holder of the repairman's certificate records that the aircraft is in a condition for safe operation it doesn't matter who installed the engine (or how many times). The non-A&P builder is not putting any A&P at risk while maintaining his own aircraft.

Just because a builder doesn't record maintenance the same way as certain A&Ps doesn't mean he is deficient in record keeping.
__________________
Sam Buchanan
RV-6
Fokker D.VII replica

Last edited by Sam Buchanan : 01-26-2015 at 03:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-26-2015, 04:10 PM
Walt's Avatar
Walt Walt is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 5,686
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan View Post
Not making a log entry that isn't required per regs is not "shortcutting the paperwork". As long as the holder of the repairman's certificate records that the aircraft is in a condition for safe operation it doesn't matter who installed the engine (or how many times). The non-A&P builder is not putting any A&P at risk while maintaining his own aircraft.

Just because a builder doesn't record maintenance the same way as certain A&Ps doesn't mean he is deficient in record keeping.
Yes it is deficient and yes it does matter. For example, if I do a 'condition inspection' but then the owner decides to do the work above but fails to document it, that makes me the last guy to inspect the aircraft. Now (god forbid) an incident happens that the owner caused, guess who would be in the hotseat with the FAA and his family when everyone decides I caused the 'incident'

Now it would be up to me to prove that "I didn't do it" which can often be impossible unless someone comes forward and tells the whole story.

The job not done till the paperwork is done, and done correctly.

PS:And I don't care what the reg's say or if that gives you a 'legal" out, you have a responsibility to comply with industry standards both as an airman and a maintenance technician, end of story and off my soapbox for now.
__________________
Walt Aronow, DFW, TX (52F)

EXP Aircraft Services LLC
Specializing in RV Condition Inspections, Maintenance, Avionics Upgrades
Dynamic Prop Balancing, Pitot-Static Altmeter/Transponder Certification
FAA Certified Repair Station, AP/IA/FCC GROL, EAA Technical Counselor
Authorized Garmin G3X Dealer/Installer
RV7A built 2004, 1700+ hrs, New Titan IO-370, Bendix Mags
Website: ExpAircraft.com, Email: walt@expaircraft.com, Cell: 972-746-5154

Last edited by Walt : 01-26-2015 at 04:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-26-2015, 04:49 PM
Andrew M's Avatar
Andrew M Andrew M is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Secluded Lake,Alaska (AK49)
Posts: 359
Default N126AR

This aircraft had fatalities. I did not release the aircraft from inspection, nor did I do much of any work through to the last inspection cycle. I was interviewed about the work I did, inspection before last, that had the wing struts removed for eddy current inspection. The FAA will (and did) dig through the paperwork to find out who has direct knowledge about the work performed. This business can, and does kill people. If I screw up that bad, I want to know so I can go back to washing dishes.
__________________
Andrew Miller
A&P, IA
-9 empennage
Wings arrived 12 JAN 13
https://plus.google.com/photos/11360...J-TuJPsmOONzQE
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-26-2015, 05:11 PM
Sam Buchanan's Avatar
Sam Buchanan Sam Buchanan is offline
been here awhile
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 4,301
Default

Walt, you and Andrew are referring to aircraft that you, as A&Ps, maintain.

That is not the scenario I am referring to, and I am assuming the situation with the original poster involves a repairman's certificate. You have responsibilities as a professional to protect you and your business from liability. In order to do so, you need to follow procedures that are above and beyond what is required by regs for a builder who is doing his own maintenance on his experimental aircraft.

Quoting horror stories about how A&Ps have been hung is dramatic, but it has absolutely nothing to do with how I record maintenance for my own aircraft as the holder of the repairman's certificate for that particular aircraft.

I am in no way advocating sloppy maintenance or record keeping, just pointing out that we have freedoms in experimental aviation that are not present in the certificated world. Just as I strongly oppose rogue DARs imposing rules on us that don't exist, I also oppose those in the certificated community imposing their opinions that are above and beyond what regulates us in the experimental, builder-maintained community.

Walt, you stated "And I don't care what the reg's say or if that gives you a 'legal" out..." That is an interesting statement after your emphasis on following standard protocol.

I care very much what the regs say (and don't say!) and I'm not looking for legal outs. It is each builder's choice as to how they record maintenance as long as they follow the guidelines for stating the aircraft is in a condition for safe operation every twelve months.

Guess my libertarian streak is showing a bit....
__________________
Sam Buchanan
RV-6
Fokker D.VII replica

Last edited by Sam Buchanan : 01-26-2015 at 05:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:12 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.