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01-13-2015, 11:37 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 1,499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila
All of the UK is already Mode S on their transponders by mandate aren't they?
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Mode-S, yes. ADS-B, no. There is no ADS-B (which is Mode-S with ES) mandate in Europe. This is why Garmin sells the GTX 328, which is a Mode-S with no ES, for use in Europe.
Of course, this is also why Europe might allow a less reliable GPS than the US will, since Europe has no expectation to use the position transmitted for separation, just for advisory traffic.
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01-13-2015, 11:42 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 368
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No, not yet, Gil. I think it 2017 but even then only in certain airspace.
There is no mandate for ADS-B Out except for a/c above 5700Kg or 250kt TAS.
The key thing is that in the UK the official position is to encourage voluntary take up of ADS-B in GA but not enforce it.
The hopefully future permanent permission to use a non-certified GPS as the position source for a 1090MHz ES transponder is to be applauded. I already have both bits of kit so the RS232 serial connection is all that is needed.
A low cost uncertified portable ADS-B unit would also be beneficial for older GA aircraft for which it is hard/impossible to justify the cost of a certified upgrade.
__________________
Steve Hutt
West Sussex, UK
RV-7 G-HUTY (not flying yet)
( Tip-UP / TMX-IO-360-M1B / Hartzell 7497-2 / 1x LSE PLASMA III / Dual AF4500's / AF-Pilot AP / 695 )
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01-13-2015, 11:43 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 1,499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12vaitor
For some reason the obvious answer to fixing the problem is the one the FAA will not allow. Technically, there is no reason that a sub-$2,500 integrated system could not be used on any GA aircraft to meet the mandate. In most cases, it appears those units also happen to be portable systems. I am not sure what the FAA has against portable systems meeting the mandate if they are otherwise qualified.
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The simple reason for not allowing portables is that they DON'T meet the FARs.
91.227 says:
(iv) The aircraft's SDA must be 2; and
(v) The aircraft's SIL must be 3.
These define the reliability of the installation. Note they say "aircraft" not "ADS-B system," so the way they are installed matters because it does change the reliability of the system. There is no way a portable unit can demonstrate a SIL of 3 when it has not been installed in a plane with some knowledge of where the GPS antenna is, the ADS-B OUT antenna is, and the quality of the power source. An ADS-B out antenna that is suction cupped to the window in the back of a Piper Archer and falls off is going to happen way to often.
So, if you want a portable to be OK, you need the FAA to change the FARs to allow lower reliability metrics.
--Ian Jordan
Dynon Avionics
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01-13-2015, 11:46 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 1,499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S
Bill, no need for the STC------experimental 
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Mike,
The FARs require you to meet a certain performance metric to be 2020 compliant. If the vendor of the equipment hasn't proven this, then it's up to you as the installer. That's what the STC shows, and allows you to know you are compliant. So while it's true you don't "need" one, if you don't have data to back up your install, you're in violation of the FAR, even if the system appears to work OK that one time you asked ATC if they could see you.
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01-13-2015, 11:50 AM
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Senior Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,419
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Got it, I guess I am brain washed into thinking that a STC is only something for "type certified" aircraft-------forget that it can also relate to the equipment as a separate item.
Thanks for the clarification.
__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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01-13-2015, 11:58 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Delaware, OH (KDLZ)
Posts: 4,196
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A little off topic
When Bill announced his new offerings available 2/1, I followed up with him off line for clarification. I think his response will help others, so I'll repost his response.
Today we have these products:
ADS600-B TSO/STC/AML Compliant ADS-B OUT, non-compliant WAAS GPS
ADS600-BG TSO/STC/AML Compliant ADS-B OUT, compliant WAAS GPS
The ?B can be upgraded to the ?BG at any time. However we will offer a lower upgrade price in 2016 for our existing customers.
We are introducing two new products on 2/1:
ADS600 TSO/STC/AML ADS-B IN (receiver-only) ? provides ADS-B IN for aircraft with 1090ES OUT
ADS600-G TSO/STC/AML ADS-B IN w/TSO-C145c WAAS GPS ? same as above except can provide GPS data to the 1090ES OUT transponder.
I hope this helps........
bob
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01-13-2015, 12:38 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: California
Posts: 652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rleffler
The ?B can be upgraded to the ?BG at any time. However we will offer a lower upgrade price in 2016 for our existing customers.
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A couple of months ago NAVWORX told me spring of 2015. Is that a change?
Don
__________________
RV-8 QB Titan ECi 191HP XIO-360
WW200RV Dynon D180 HS34 AP74
GNS430 SL30 GTX327 PS8000B Uavionix Echouat
"Pilots are alchemists... we turn gold into lead."
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01-13-2015, 01:21 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Rowlett, TX
Posts: 13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynonsupport
Bill,
Again, our suggestions are to our customers with our ADS-B compliant transponder. As you note, the reason to wait is that the product you suggest isn't on the market yet! Close, yes, but still not for sale, so it's not something we can be suggesting.
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Well, two weeks away and you can't suggest it? I know the reality is that you don't want to work with any other ADS-B vendor as you sell your own equipment, and like Garmin, make your interfaces proprietary so that other vendors can't inter-operate. That's your business, but in my opinion doesn't serve the GA interest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dynonsupport
Additionally, as you mentioned, a system needs to be demonstrated compliant with both the ADS-B OUT and GPS source as a system. So our system will not be able to immediately use your GPS device as a compliant source. We've focused on supporting the IFR navigators so far since they are the ones people have already.
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Your system would be able to immediately use our GPS source. I understand that you don't produce FAA certified systems, but when a vendor sells a product that has an STC/AML, by definition, interfacing equipment is contained in the AML. In other words, it would be silly of me to offer a product that interfaces to the Trig, without it being legal to interface to the Trig.
[/quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dynonsupport
Finally, in our opinion, GPS sources will be cheaper than $2,200 in the next few years, so our recommendation to our customers is still to wait.
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Unlikely. Our ADS600-B is both an ADS-B IN product and the TSO-C145c WAAS GPS - for $2200.00. Your uncertified ADS-B IN receiver alone, is what, around $1000.00?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dynonsupport
Additionally, your website says the ADS600-G at $2,200 is not TSO'd, and the ADS600-BG with a TSO'd GPS is $3,800, not $2,200. So there's still a lot of confusion out there as to pricing and what you get.
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We don't have the info on the ADS600-B on the website, so you are incorrect when you list the (inaccurate) price for it. The -BG and the -B are two separate products, btw.
__________________
Bill Moffitt
NavWorx Incorporated
888-628-9679
(972) 372-0768 (direct)
469-327-2683 (fax)
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01-13-2015, 01:22 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Rowlett, TX
Posts: 13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfiidon
A couple of months ago NAVWORX told me spring of 2015. Is that a change?
Don
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Don,
The offer was made during SnF 2014, with the start date of April 2016.
__________________
Bill Moffitt
NavWorx Incorporated
888-628-9679
(972) 372-0768 (direct)
469-327-2683 (fax)
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01-13-2015, 01:32 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Rowlett, TX
Posts: 13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynonsupport
The simple reason for not allowing portables is that they DON'T meet the FARs.
91.227 says:
(iv) The aircraft's SDA must be 2; and
(v) The aircraft's SIL must be 3.
These define the reliability of the installation. Note they say "aircraft" not "ADS-B system," so the way they are installed matters because it does change the reliability of the system. There is no way a portable unit can demonstrate a SIL of 3 when it has not been installed in a plane with some knowledge of where the GPS antenna is, the ADS-B OUT antenna is, and the quality of the power source. An ADS-B out antenna that is suction cupped to the window in the back of a Piper Archer and falls off is going to happen way to often.
So, if you want a portable to be OK, you need the FAA to change the FARs to allow lower reliability metrics.
--Ian Jordan
Dynon Avionics
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Ian, with all due respect, Dynon's interpretation of some of the FAA stuff is bewildering to me. SIL refers to the certification level of the GPS receiver, and has nothing to do with the installation of the GPS antenna. Quality of Power Source? Nothing to do with either SIL or SDA - it is part of the TSO however. And regarding the suction cupped GPS antenna - I agree not the way to go, but how about velcro? Did you know that Cirrus SR20/22 aircraft have both of the Garmin GNS430W GPS antennas velcro'd to the bottom of the glare shield? And this is a Type Certificated aircraft.
__________________
Bill Moffitt
NavWorx Incorporated
888-628-9679
(972) 372-0768 (direct)
469-327-2683 (fax)
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