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01-12-2015, 07:06 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 6,797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR
Dynon,
Since my SkyView Mode S Transponder isn't ADS-B compliant, can I do a software downgrade to Mode C? That way I won't be outputting my discrete airplane ID?
Then, when you come up with a solution, I will set it back to Mode S.
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If you have ADSB-in, then there is a reason to run your mode S even if the position source is not 2020 compliant: The uplinked traffic info will be tagged with your ID, so your display software should be able to filter it out and prevent false alarms due to your own radar image.
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01-12-2015, 08:39 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 1,499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR
Since my SkyView Mode S Transponder isn't ADS-B compliant, can I do a software downgrade to Mode C? That way I won't be outputting my discrete airplane ID?
Then, when you come up with a solution, I will set it back to Mode S.
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Nope, we cannot do this in software. Plus, if we did this you'd lose TIS-A traffic and TIS-B traffic.
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01-12-2015, 08:41 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 1,499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner
If you have ADSB-in, then there is a reason to run your mode S even if the position source is not 2020 compliant: The uplinked traffic info will be tagged with your ID, so your display software should be able to filter it out and prevent false alarms due to your own radar image.
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Actually, the bigger reason is that even a non-compliant source "wakes up" the ground station to send you all Mode C targets. Without ADS-B out you don't get reliable traffic at all, you have to have another ADS-B plane around to wake it up for you.
Of course, if you don't have ADS-B IN then it's irrelevant, except our transponder is a TIS-A client so you do still get traffic in some areas.
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01-13-2015, 04:06 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynonsupport
Nope, we cannot do this in software. Plus, if we did this you'd lose TIS-A traffic and TIS-B traffic.
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Let me start b6 saying my issue is not with Dynon. The SkyView and integrated transponder is great! My concern has to do with the FAA's implementation, data recording, and the inherent limitations in the system.
I realize that I won't get traffic, and since there are a LOT of antiques based at my home field it really doesn't do me much good. So, for now I would be happy to give up ADS-B traffic. Besides, the one time I was almost hit (~20' separation) I was in controlled airspace and ADS-B traffic was way behind. I've learned not to put a lot of faith in it.
My fear is that since the FAA is recording all of our flights and knows who we are by serial number, not just a plane squawking 1200, some day they are going to mine their database for infractions. Things like taking off VFR when their computers say it is IFR at your location, nicking controlled airspace, performing an acrobatic maneuver to close to an airway or under a class B shelf, etc. With the data they are collecting, it is just a matter of time until they go after someone.
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
Last edited by N941WR : 01-13-2015 at 04:14 AM.
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01-13-2015, 08:23 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 1,007
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I, too, Bill am concerned about the surveillance and government opportunism in two regards.
1. Surveillance and receiving notice of a violation in the mail means you now must prove your innocence in the upside-down world of the FAA/NTSB where you're guilty until proven innocent.
2. Collecting user fees (I credit this notion to Brantel in an old ADS thread).
My -7 is 2020 compliant and I think about 1 above every time I fly. I'll start disabling ADS and the transponder if there's ever a whiff of FAA fishing. Catch me if you can.
Fees: A future certainty.
I've decided to never equip our 172. It's used primarily for trips into Class G, and on the rare occasion of needing Mode C (or ADS-B), beg entry from ATC as is currently allowed. I'm guessing a huge portion of the GA fleet will not be compliant and will make ATC's job an even bigger tower of babel.
John Siebold
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01-13-2015, 08:29 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ramona, Ca
Posts: 259
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Bill,
If you're that concerned about big brother watching and are willing to fly VFR only without flight following there is an option. Here is a segment from ADS-B specification circular (AC No:20-165 ) allowing for the pilot to disable the aircraft identification feature.
Anonymity Feature
. 14 CFR ? 91.227 contains specific provisions allowing operators with TSO-C154c equipment to transmit a self-assigned (randomized) temporary 24-bit address and a blank call sign. No such provision is provided for TSO-C166b equipment. After January 1, 2020 and in the airspace identified in 14 CFR ? 91.225, the UAT anonymous 24-bit address feature may only be used when the operator has not filed a flight plan and is not requesting ATC services. The UAT call sign may also be omitted, but only when the anonymous 24-bit address is chosen. We do not recommend integrating the anonymity features, as the operator will not be eligible to receive ATC services, may not be able to benefit from enhanced ADS-B search and rescue capabilities, and may impact ADS-B In situational awareness benefits. The following considerations must be included in the ADS-B system design when installing equipment capable of utilizing the anonymity feature:
(a) When the ADS-B equipment is initially powered-on, the 24-bit address must default to the aircraft?s assigned ICAO 24-bit address.
(b) When the ADS-B equipment is initially powered-on, the call sign may not be blank. At initial power-on it is acceptable for the call sign to revert to a non-blank call sign which existed prior to the ADS-B equipment being powered off, or to the aircraft registration number.
(c) The ADS-B equipment can only allow an anonymous 24-bit address selection if the Mode 3/A code is set to 1200.
18 5/21/2010 AC 20-165
(d) The ADS-B equipment may only allow selection of the anonymous 24-bit address via a dedicated pilot interface. The ADS-B Out equipment may not automatically set an anonymous 24-bit address or set a blank call sign based solely on pilot selection of the 1200 Mode 3/A code.
(e) The ADS-B Out equipment must automatically disable the anonymity feature if any Mode 3/A code other than 1200 is selected. The 24-bit address must automatically revert to the aircraft?s assigned ICAO 24-bit address. If the call sign was blank, the call sign must automatically revert to the aircraft registration number.
BillC
__________________
Bill RV-9A Flying
FFI- Flight Lead
N99WC
Ramona, CA (KRNM)
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01-13-2015, 09:18 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,887
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BillC,
I already do fly everywhere VFR and while I use flight following from time to time, I have taken long trips (SC to TX, NC to MI, etc.) without it.
I have found that airplanes fly perfectly well without radios. Which is why my next project will not have an engine driven electrical system! Now if I can find a wind driven generator, like my '41 Tcraft had.
One other thing, when talking to the FAA person who was staffing their ADS-B display last year, we were told that they will use the data for enforcement. At which point my friend said that if they start doing that, pilots will have the option of turning off their transponders. The FAA guy was not pleased at that comment.
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
Last edited by N941WR : 01-13-2015 at 09:47 AM.
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01-13-2015, 11:58 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 1,499
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BillC,
Unfortunately, the anonymous mode is only for UAT's, and not Mode-S transponders. To use this feature you need to equip with a Mode-C transponder AND a UAT as your ADS-B solution, not the much less expensive Mode-S with ES option.
You only need a transponder in the places you need a transponder. Perfectly legal to takeoff and fly with it off if you're not in one of those areas.
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01-13-2015, 12:17 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynonsupport
BillC,
Unfortunately, the anonymous mode is only for UAT's, and not Mode-S transponders. To use this feature you need to equip with a Mode-C transponder AND a UAT as your ADS-B solution, not the much less expensive Mode-S with ES option.
You only need a transponder in the places you need a transponder. Perfectly legal to takeoff and fly with it off if you're not in one of those areas.
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Does (or will it) the Dynon Trig transponder have a "Mode C" option?
Mode S is the same frequency output as Mode C, just more digital data, correct?
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
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01-13-2015, 12:19 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 1,499
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Gil,
As asked above, it is not possible for our transponder to act as a Mode-C transponder. I honestly don't know if it's possible in software, but if it was, the transponder would need to be re-TSO'd since a Mode-C transponder is a different TSO than a Mode-S, and the Mode-S TSO does not allow Mode-C only operation.
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