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  #31  
Old 12-28-2014, 06:48 AM
Kyle Boatright Kyle Boatright is offline
 
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer View Post
Hmmmm...must have been a seriously wrong forecast. Isn't the closest Point of Entry only something like 60 miles from the Florida coast?
I've heard this story from the pilot's perspective. IIRC, the leg was substantially longer than 60 NM. They launched, found unexpected headwinds, called FSS, were told "It's gonna turn into a tailwind". Lather, rinse, repeat, until things were out of hand.

It was determined later that the FSS was using an out of date wind forecast.
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  #32  
Old 12-28-2014, 07:29 AM
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tomkk tomkk is offline
 
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Originally Posted by turbo View Post
pancake it in! i heard about this technique from an old timer years ago. never tried it, never heard of anyone else even talk about it, so here it is.

approach full flaps and as low as possible, at the last moment pull back and stall the plane. you will gain a bit of altitude and slow to minimum speed before pancaking it in.

a quick prayer to your favorite god or goddess is not a bad idea either.

Definition of PANCAKE LANDING

: a landing in which the airplane is stalled usually unintentionally above the landing surface causing it to drop abruptly in an approximately horizontal position with little forward motion.
The only thing I'd worry about is the poor depth perception you have over water. That would make it difficult to tell when "the last moment" arrives. Still, I think, at least with a tip-up, this is what I'd try to pull off.
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  #33  
Old 12-28-2014, 07:53 AM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
I'm sure that made for an uncomfortable conversation afterwards...
His wife is a great person, helped him build an RV and flies with him often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer View Post
Hmmmm...must have been a seriously wrong forecast. Isn't the closest Point of Entry only something like 60 miles from the Florida coast?
I've heard this story from the pilot's perspective. IIRC, the leg was substantially longer than 60 NM. They launched, found unexpected headwinds, called FSS, were told "It's gonna turn into a tailwind". Lather, rinse, repeat, until things were out of hand.

It was determined later that the FSS was using an out of date wind forecast.
What Kyle said, FSS screwed up, it almost cost him his life, and the leg was longer than 60 NM.

The reason the pilot didn't fill up on the islands is after inspecting the condition of the rusty fueling barrels and consulting the winds forecast, he felt is safer to go with the fuel on board rather than risk fuel contamination.
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  #34  
Old 12-28-2014, 10:35 AM
KTOA KTOA is offline
 
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Default Nope

Sorry but I can't let this one pass. It was the PIC making poor ADM choices. We're given very little info on this incident but to give wholesale blame to FSS is absolutely ridiculous.

A headwind puts you in the water? Didn't the PIC check his progress throughout the flight and realize he had a headwind? Divert to another airport? Turn back to the departure airport? If the fuel planning was that tight shouldn't the PIC have been hypersensitive to his progress?

"I won't use that bad fuel so I'll just continue to fly over open water" is just one link in the accident chain. I will wager there were many dumb choices in this accident chain.

I don't let ATC nor FSS ever fly my airplane...

A take away lesson is to ask how old the winds aloft forecast is.
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  #35  
Old 12-28-2014, 01:23 PM
sailvi767 sailvi767 is online now
 
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I kind of wondered about the wind forecast myself. It had to have been really off to cause you to use all your reserve and still end up well short of your destination and in the water. With the location of the airports in the Bahamas and Florida a turn around should have been possible at very low fuel state. To overfly airports and start across a small 60 mile open stretch of water knowing you can't make it unless you get a radical wind change is one very optimistic pilot!
George
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  #36  
Old 12-28-2014, 01:28 PM
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RV7A Flyer RV7A Flyer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR View Post
His wife is a great person, helped him build an RV and flies with him often.


What Kyle said, FSS screwed up, it almost cost him his life, and the leg was longer than 60 NM.

The reason the pilot didn't fill up on the islands is after inspecting the condition of the rusty fueling barrels and consulting the winds forecast, he felt is safer to go with the fuel on board rather than risk fuel contamination.
And he didn't just fly to the closest airport with better fuel facilities?
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  #37  
Old 12-28-2014, 02:04 PM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
 
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I'm not the pilot, so I can't answer for him and this is way off topic.

What was supposed to be a mild tail wind turned into a significant headwind, along the line of 40 knots, IIRC.

So, what turned into a flight with significant margin turned into one w/ no margin.

As for planning, we have all gotten spoiled by using our GPS's. This flight happened before the availability of sat navigation and a watch and compass were the primary over water navigation tools.

So diverting to another island was not an option.

Now, back to the question at hand, ditching. The reason for his ditching isn't important, what was that he did everything correctly and lived to tell the tail.
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RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
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Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
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  #38  
Old 12-28-2014, 03:05 PM
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RV7A Flyer RV7A Flyer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR View Post
I'm not the pilot, so I can't answer for him and this is way off topic.

What was supposed to be a mild tail wind turned into a significant headwind, along the line of 40 knots, IIRC.

So, what turned into a flight with significant margin turned into one w/ no margin.

As for planning, we have all gotten spoiled by using our GPS's. This flight happened before the availability of sat navigation and a watch and compass were the primary over water navigation tools.

So diverting to another island was not an option.

Now, back to the question at hand, ditching. The reason for his ditching isn't important, what was that he did everything correctly and lived to tell the tail.
I disagree that this is off-topic...the best way to deal with an accident is not to have one in the first place, and as the "debunking myths" page pointed out from their data:

Quote:
In nearly a third of all single-engine ditchings, fuel exhaustion, mismanagement, or contamination is the suspected cause...
Further, you stated that neither the pilot nor passenger were wearing lifejackets, despite what was an apparently long overwater route, another bad idea.

If it was a 40 knot headwind, then turning around would have made it a 40 knot tailwind. Let's assume around 120 knots for a Cherokee...that's 165 knots groundspeed.

Edited: So he got himself at least 80 nautical miles (assuming 1/2 hour reserve) from land, with insufficient fuel to proceed, and nobody was wearing survival gear.

And yet this is FSS' fault?

Last edited by RV7A Flyer : 12-28-2014 at 04:20 PM.
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  #39  
Old 12-28-2014, 03:14 PM
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RV7A Flyer RV7A Flyer is offline
 
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Would it have been *this* accident?

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.av...no=1&pgsize=50

Because if so, the NTSB put the fault squarely on the pilot.
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  #40  
Old 12-28-2014, 03:34 PM
Darin Watson Darin Watson is offline
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 147
Default Pancake landing

Saw Turbo's post about "Pancake" landing into water. Minimizing forward speed onto any "bad" situation is a good idea...period. I thankfully have never had to, but a very experienced bush pilot I know and trust has survived 3 "hang it in the trees" by pancake into tall lodge pole or spruce trees.
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