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  #1  
Old 11-28-2014, 12:33 PM
cdeerinck's Avatar
cdeerinck cdeerinck is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: San Marcos, CA
Posts: 415
Question In need of guidance and advice

This post is mostly about me trying to avoid making any irreversible mistakes, and in avoiding re-work.

I know I can't plan/know everything in advance, but I am at least trying to get the wiring and hoses done, before I close up the floors, final wing skins, and fuselage tops. I am getting to that point in the plans, where things become vague, and if I just march forward per the book, I will end up having easy jobs become crazy retrofits.

I have open items that say "avoid doing these steps until as late as possible". In other areas, they describe things that aren't applicable to the plane I'm building. I am finding myself standing in the garage, endlessly planning things that are going to happen, and getting less and less work done.

I have most of the sub-schematics done, and I'm comfortable with what I have so far, but I haven't put everything all together and have a final review done yet.

So, I'm hoping someone can give me some advice on how to plan at this point, and maybe get ideas on the best way to go on some equipment, point out things I might be missing, etc.

There are three strong RV groups in the category of "not local, but close enough to draw other people away", located in San Diego, Ramona, and Chino, so it leaves my area a bit emptied out.

My local EAA chapter consists of already flying guys that just want to swap stories, and a few new guys looking for guidance but not getting much. I'm not giving up on that avenue, but I can't bank on getting anything soon. I do plan on being there for anyone else in the chapter who would like anything I might have to offer. But so far, nobody that would be willing to drop by and check up on me.

Also, so far, I have been unable to locate a Tech Councilor (the EAA list is full of people that have retired, and seems like it isn't being maintained). I recently got two leads on not local guys that are DAR and Tech Counselors (Brian Evans and Matt Hlavac) that I haven't follow up on yet. So I don't know if I can get them for other than a paid inspection yet.

So here is the background info:

Pilot:
  • 13 year, 1200 hour glider pilot, soloed in power, and finishing my power license now.
  • Then comes tail wheel, RV transition, then IFR.

Knowns:
RV-8 QB
Mission
Commuter and traveling plane, IFR Capable, will be flying a lot of night, and a very occasional acro maneuver (you just have to occasionally roll any RV-8, right?)
Engine
  • IO-360 (haven't decided high or low compression)
  • Hartzell Constant Speed prop
  • Dual P-Mags
  • B&C Starter
  • B&C L-60 belt driven Alternator, B&C 410-H 20-30 amp gear driven Alternator as backup (to be put on vacuum pad)
Panel
  • Dual Dynon Skyview 10" touch w/Dynon Transponder, Auto Pilot, Com, Intercom, EMS, AOA/Pitot w/heat, ADAHRS, ADS-B
  • (yes, no backup steam gauges. If I wanted a manual ASI, I would have to find a creative location.)
  • Also, iPhone running Foreflight from phone GPS only
Lights
  • AeroLED Nav/Strobe/Landing/Taxi lights
Electrical
  • Aft battery (debating about 2nd battery forward, the Skyview already has back up batteries, but don't want it forward of the firewall)
  • VP-X (wavering between Sport and Pro, $700 for an integrated 2nd battery voltage monitor, ouch!)
  • Ray Allen Flap Position Sensor
  • ClassicAero seats w/internal heaters
Fuel & Breaks
  • Andair Fuel Selector
  • Would like to use pre-made fuel and break lines in the cockpit
Mods
  • Have done the brake fluid reservoir on rudder pedals mod
  • Behind panel access door
  • Over aft battery access door
  • Rear tailcone shelf (for long items like Snowboard/Kiteboard)
Building situation
  • Single car garage, and managing with everything on wheels, wings in dolly, fuselage on rolling rotisserie. The tail has been installed, trued and installed, then removed.
  • The fuselage fits with the tail off, and the door closed, without about 2-3 inches to spare.
  • Once I want to rig wings or tail permanently, or mount the engine, it won't fit, at which point I will have to take over the 2 car garage, or move it to a hangar, so I am trying to finish everything I can before that happens.
  • The fuselage will be going out shortly for internal cockpit powder coating or paint, so I have to remove anything that can't take 400 degree heat.
Unknowns:
  • Type of Fuel pump
  • Type of Boost pump
  • Type of voltage regulator
  • Type of Fuel Totalizer (I have stock fuel senders, and would like to avoid a capacitive sender retrofit)
  • Stick Grips (Infinity?)

What I have already read:
  • The Sportplane Builder
  • Tony Bingelis on Engines
  • Firewall Forward
  • AeroElectric Connection
  • The VPX Manual (very good)

Questions:
  • Order of operations: (Wiring, Plumbing, Floors, Top skins, Finish kit, Engine, Electronics) or some other order?
  • How the **** do you pre-plan the firewall layout, without knowing everything (Equipment list, Engine and Engine Mount clearance, FWF tube and hose wiring, etc)?
  • Do people usually buy everything at once, or as they go?
  • Can I do an occasional roll or loop without inverted oil system, and fuel flop tube?
  • Should I make the floors to be removable with nutplates? How often do you really need to pull them?
    And why the heck does Vans make some of the holes have nutplates, when you rivet the rest down?
  • What am I missing?
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~Chuck

DG-800S Sailplane
QB RV-8 -- Working on final wiring and the engine
84CX Reserved
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  #2  
Old 11-28-2014, 01:56 PM
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Dbro172 Dbro172 is offline
 
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Location: West Fargo, ND
Posts: 1,073
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Best advice is to just follow the order in the plans. Check something off each day. The last thing you will do is put the wings on and interior in. The firewall forward kit comes with instructions for everything firewall forward. You'll need an engine hung to complete the cowling and finish kit. Other advice; have a professional build and wire your panel while you complete the finish kit and firewall forward stuff. Top skin after instrument panel install. Get used to the drive to Ramona, it is the only airport in SD county that you can fly off your phase one testing from.
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RV-9A #92103 - N803DK
G3X, Superior XO-320, Dual Pmags, Catto 3B
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1974 Bellanca Super Viking - N16AW - Flying
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1968 Mooney M20C - N6801N - Sold
1956 C-182 - N744W - Sold
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  #3  
Old 11-28-2014, 03:56 PM
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carrollcw carrollcw is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Friendswood, TX
Posts: 193
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I am under the impression you are trying to over plan things here. Follow the directions from Vans. Empennage, Wings or Fuselage, Finishing Kit, Avionics and Engine.

Unless you KNOW this will be somehow complete in the next year (I'd bet money now thats not going to happen), I would not make a decision on avionics, electric backbone, lights, etc. Technology is changing so rapidly. You will kick yourself if you go ahead and buy a Dynon skyview and 2 years later there is a better/newer Dynon product (BTW, I would seriously look at the G3X touch). Same is to be said for lights, starter, alternator, etc.

Additionally, once you have your engine, it is a lot easier to make some of your purchase decisions. For example, I didn't see your ignition plan (maybe I missed it). Mags, P Mags, electronic, or mixed. I chose the dual EFII setup. The EFII kit includes the fuel pumps, regulator, and injection. It also effects how you can measure your fuel consumption (as there is unburned fuel,it requires a return back to each tank).

Based on personal experience, if you order a bunch of stuff up front, you will end up returning a lot of it (and sometimes paying a restocking fee, and worst case they might not accept the return if it has been a long time since the purchase, Vans requires items to be returned within 2 years and charges a restocking fee). I'd recommend buying as much stuff together as required for the phase of the build. For example, when you are nearing avionics, buy all your avionics, wire, fuses, buses, ground bars, backshells, etc for the avionics install. When you are a couple months from firewall forward, order your engine, ignition, FF kit, starter, alternator, exhaust, prop, etc. Realize that oftentimes the engine and prop will have a 2 month lead time.

Right now, I would just concentrate on building the airframe iaw the Vans plans.

Happy building!
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  #4  
Old 11-28-2014, 07:07 PM
Adam Adam is offline
 
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The fuselage will be going out shortly for internal cockpit powder coating or paint, so I have to remove anything that can't take 400 degree heat.

Do you really want to expose the fuselage to 400 degrees? I have to agree with others, go with the Vans flow. As you build there will be many changes on the way,, I would hold off on the avionics as long as possible.
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  #5  
Old 11-28-2014, 07:16 PM
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Tbone Tbone is offline
 
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Location: South
Posts: 526
Default Powder coating

Don't do that!
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  #6  
Old 11-28-2014, 08:32 PM
David Paule David Paule is offline
 
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The fuselage structure can't take the heat. Don't powder coat it.

Dave
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  #7  
Old 11-28-2014, 08:36 PM
aerhed aerhed is offline
 
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Location: Big Sandy, WY
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No, don't cook your plane. None of the 70 year old planes were cooked.
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  #8  
Old 11-29-2014, 12:22 AM
cdeerinck's Avatar
cdeerinck cdeerinck is offline
 
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Location: San Marcos, CA
Posts: 415
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I'm very curious as to all the "don't powder coat" replies.

Here is a quote from another source:
Quote:
I have a fair bit of experience with the effects of heat-treating on aluminum and unless the temperature of the metal exceeds ~525 ish (or you soak it in the mid to high 400's for a long time) there is no significant annealing that goes on. I work in a cylinder manufacturing plant as an engineer and I can assure you that a very long soak at a temperature in the high 400s has a negligible affect on tensile strength.
I also saw references in Matt Dralle's RV-8 build, that he did similar.
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/displa...g=194567&row=4
Can any of you give me specifics on why you think it is a bad idea?
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DG-800S Sailplane
QB RV-8 -- Working on final wiring and the engine
84CX Reserved
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  #9  
Old 11-29-2014, 05:54 AM
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Tbone Tbone is offline
 
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Location: South
Posts: 526
Default Warpage

As Matt powder coated his parts they were removable and have some "substance". If you were to powdercoat the interior fuselage as a whole you would warp the thinner skins. It wouldn't damage the aluminum structurally but would warp the flat panels more than a carnival mirror!
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  #10  
Old 11-29-2014, 06:18 AM
paul mosher
 
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Anything over 250 degrees F with affect the heat treat of the aluminum! DO NOT DO IT!
Regardless what the "expert" said the aluminum heat treat will be affected. In fact it was a question on my IA renewal seminar.
This from 43 13 : b.
"Reheating at Temperatures Above Boiling Water.

Reheating of 2017 and 2024 alloys above 212° F tend to impair the original heat treatment. Therefore, reheating above 212° F, including the baking of primers, is not acceptable without subsequent complete and correct heat treatment."

That guy may know about heat treating engines but he is full of it regarding aluminum sheet.
To re heat treat to a T3 condition you have to get to 990 degrees F and then quench within 8 seconds. Most likely the fuselage will warp.
Also let's not forget that the rivets are a 2017 alloy and are treated to T4.

Last edited by paul mosher : 11-29-2014 at 06:50 AM.
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