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11-02-2014, 08:53 AM
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VAF Moderator / Line Boy
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,256
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I won't take exception to JPalease's comments at all - if you make this (or anything) the focus of thousands of repetitions, and you can do it realistically, then yes - any maneuver, no matter how challenging, can be mastered, by at least a percentage of the population. I spent an entire career (like many of you) practicing emergencies - and not just once in awhile - multiple times a week. It was my profesion, and that kind of training works - absolutely!
But the average private pilot reading here is not going to get that kind of constant, recurrent training. He might go out and practice this once or twice with an experienced, encouraging pilot who will end the session saying "good job - see, it can be done!" See where I am leading with this?
There are lots of experienced pilots here on the forums who have already made their decision - based on years and years of flying - on what they will do in these cases. The vast majority, however, are pilots who fly less than 100 hours per year and have less than 500 hours in their logbook - and will (statistically) never log more than that. That is the audience that the experienced folks need to be talking to.
We lost a neighbor a couple of months ago in a BD-4 - stalled on the base to final turn, did two full turns before hitting the desert floor. The airplane was about a foot and a half tall sitting out there. He had 15,000 hours, was a professional pilot. What happened? We have no idea - but I doubt it was intentional.
There are so many variables in this game that it is doubtful that, in the real emergency, conditions will be the same as in practice - and small variations will have a lot to do with success or failure - which is probably why the failure rate is so high.
Practice is great - but do we really want to be encouraging the inexperienced to go play with a task that is KNOWN to be a killer?
__________________
Paul F. Dye
Editor at Large - KITPLANES Magazine
RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
RV-6 (By Marriage) - N164MS - "Mikey"
RV-3B - N13PL - "Tsamsiyu"
A&P, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor
Dayton Valley Airpark (A34)
http://Ironflight.com
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11-02-2014, 08:56 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 2,053
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I had my Cherokee o-320 eat an exhaust valve just after take off, full fuel (50gls) with 2 souls on board. I would guess I was 400-500 ft when it happened and yes in being a Cherokee I was well past the end of the runway. I remember the first thought I had was "that's not getting better" as the engine was shaking violently. I immediately pulled the throttle to idle and had my second thought "this is the day I die". Yikes, that will get your attention! Then I heard the voice of my flight instructor "you lost your engine, what are you going to do?" Unravelling from the fetal position I realized I needed to continue to fly the plane. All of this took about 2 seconds. I knew about landing "straight ahead or within 30 degrees of the nose" so that was my plan. A left turn to an open area and into the wind. As I continued my 30 degree bank or so, past my 30 degree left turn I kept finding better places to land. It started with trees straight ahead. A corn field 30 degrees to the left. A road 90 degrees to the left, hangar roads 150 degrees to the left and my departure runway by the time I reached 180. As the plane rolled to a stop and I stopped shaking, I pushed the plane off the runway and called my flight instructor to thank him for "beating me up" with emergency training. Would I do a 180 again?, don't know, maybe. My plan would be to land straight ahead and continue to fly the plane. Making adjustments to improve my situation continuously.
Here's my beef. As a flight instructor, I have see many pilots who have terrible "attitude" flying skills. They fly constantly looking inside at their instruments and you'd think every approach was an instrument approach. With that technique I'd guess you may not fair to well in an "impossible turn" situation. It would be wise to start practicing pattern work without once looking inside, if you would even consider the impossible turn. Especially practice Power-Off 180's and Power-Off 270's. You have to know the glide path your airplane takes to the runway and the pitch attitude for safe speed and the drag control intuitively. It has to be part of your DNA. This way when the blank it's the fan, you know instantly where your glider will take you.
Take another pilot along, preferably an instructor and just practice gliding from every point in and out of the traffic pattern. Practice adding and removing flaps to make "spot landings". Make your only "fail" criteria if you at any point raise the nose above the horizon.
One of the things I struggle with sometimes is cruising at high altitudes (above 10k) without supplemental oxygen. The -9 does so well up there it's hard to resist. And yes, I always end up hypoxic. Which one of the by products is you loose half your flying skills when it comes time to land if you don't descend early to re-oxygenate. I ALWAYS rely on my basic attitude flying skills to get me to the runway safely.
Take the time to read Chapter 3 of the FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook. Here's an excerpt "ATTITUDE FLYING -In contact (VFR) flying, flying by attitude means visually establishing the airplane’s attitude with reference to the natural horizon. ATTITUDE + POWER = PERFORMANCE
__________________
Tony Phillips
N524AP, RV 9 (tail wheel)
Last edited by apkp777 : 11-02-2014 at 08:59 AM.
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11-02-2014, 09:07 AM
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Moderator, Asst. Line Boy
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Flower Mound, TX
Posts: 1,473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight
...But the average private pilot reading here is not going to get that kind of constant, recurrent training.
...Practice is great - but do we really want to be encouraging the inexperienced to go play with a task that is KNOWN to be a killer?
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Paul,
You're right. And when you're right, you're right. And you, Sir, are right.
__________________
Scroll
Sid "Scroll" Mayeux, Col, USAF (ret)
52F NW Regional/Aero Valley Airport, Roanoke TX (home of DR's Van Cave)
"KELLI GIRL" N260KM RV-7A tipper
Catch her on YouTube's "Because I Fly!" channel
Exemption waived.
Proud and grateful 2020 -=VAF=- Contributor
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11-02-2014, 10:28 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 52
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The impossible turn
I agree 100% with Paul unless you have pattern altitude don't try it!!!!!! Too many hours in the right seat. Mike
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11-02-2014, 10:34 AM
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Senior Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Seager
I agree 100% with Paul unless you have pattern altitude don't try it!!!!!! Too many hours in the right seat. Mike
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And, there it is.
Hi Mike, glad to see you posting.
__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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11-02-2014, 11:18 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Newport, RI
Posts: 705
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Training
I fly out of an airport in an RV-3 surrounded by water,
three out of the four runways. KOQU. The fourth
Is no bargain in straight out landing. If I loose an engine
On climb out, a straight out landing guarantees
A water landing or landing into a congested area.
I have paid for training in this maneuver. I was taught
At 100 mph glide speed and a min of 500 agl, I could turn
back with height and speed to spare. Yes the engine was at idle, but
Also 100mph is far above published glide speeds for an RV, and goes along way to not spin in a coordinated descending steep turn.
Let's say this happens at my home airport. At 500' I try to get around,
Focusing on airspeed, making sure I don't stall the plane. I may or may not get all the way around. What are my options if I don't get around? Land in the
water. Turning around does not secure that I don't get my feet wet but does substantially increase my odds of not.
The key here is not killing yourself in the turn! Putting the nose
down to gain airspeed at 500' in a steep bank takes a bit
Of getting use to and I would have never done it without instruction. Once the initial turn is made, your leveling off the wings, maintaining airspeed and looking for a place to land, hopefully back on the friendly side of the fence.
I do very much respect the advice of the experienced pilots
On this forum. I am merely sharing my experience with training, which was worth all the money!
__________________
Al Girard, Newport, RI
N339AG
RV-9
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11-02-2014, 12:31 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Welsford, Nova Scotia
Posts: 116
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Great thread, I think there is no "one size fits all answer" though because of all the variables and skill sets of the folks involved in this discussion.
Regarding gliders: as a baby pilot I had the cable snap at a very low altitude on my very first solo in my life. We were taught to land straight ahead and that is exactly what I did. Was I ever a fan of those 10 kts on the nose!
Regarding turning back:
1. I've had numerous engine failures on multiengine aircraft (fixed and rotary wing) and I will add that an aircraft flies and sounds different with an engine actually out vs feathered. Things will seem quite unfamiliar the first time;
2. Tail wind landings can be a challenge, they too need to be practiced when you can overshoot;and
3. Practicing a maneuver like this and doing it are two very different things. I'd bet a beer (even an American one  ) that you wouldn't hear that guy taxing out onto the button of the runway that you just departed. Won't he, be surprised;
This forum is awesome, but the audience is such a wide swath of pilots. I'm not taking one side or the other, just wanted to add a bit of my experience that may help someone else reading about this and contemplating "trying it out". Heck if I loose all my thrust between 500'-1000' I know what I would do... but that's just between me and what my SA is telling me.
__________________
Al
Last edited by AlinNS : 11-02-2014 at 12:36 PM.
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11-02-2014, 12:57 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,646
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In a sense, these debates are kind of frustrating and not very helpful, as too often the debate boils down to two supposedly stark choices--try a 180 or land straight head, as if there aren't multiple other possibilities. As Tony, a CFI, notes above, the decision may be somewhere in between and the decision may sometimes need to be made incrementally. What's in front of you may have a lot to do with what your decision is. Your altitude above the ground at time of engine failure may have a lot to do with what your decision is. Whether or not you have intersecting runways may have a lot to do with what your decision is.
Thus, given that we don't live in a black and white, either-or, world, before I push the throttle in to take off, I try to:
a. Visually confirm from which direction the wind is blowing and how strong it is.
b. Know beforehand what my options are off the departure end of the runway.
c. Decide what my minimum turnaround altitude is--if I haven't obtained it, then I'm going to try to land as much as possible straight ahead and, if possible, into the wind.
Perhaps the most useful result of these debates is that they remind me I need to ask myself these questions every time before I take off.
__________________
Steve M.
Ellensburg WA
RV-9 Flying, 0-320, Catto
Donation reminder: Jan. 2021
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11-02-2014, 02:03 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Newport, RI
Posts: 705
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altitude bug
__________________
Al Girard, Newport, RI
N339AG
RV-9
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11-02-2014, 03:42 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: MERRITT ISLAND, FL
Posts: 360
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A test procedure
We had an interesting exercise at the Naval Test Pilot School that was used to develop the data for helicopter height-velocity diagrams. We would bring the helo to a nominal height (~500?) at zero airspeed and chop the throttle while holding the collective fixed. You waited 3 seconds then aggressively lowered the collective and recovered the aircraft via an auto-rotation maneuver. You progressively lowered the height until you concluded that any lower altitude was unsafe. You can?t take all the bias out of this drill because you (a) know the engine is going to fail (hence the 3 second WTF delay), and (b) as the test goes on your skill level gets higher.
In my RV 8 testing I wanted to develop an altitude curve for 180 degree, L/R 90 and L/R 45. My intention is to determine the altitudes and condition myself to dump the nose at the first sign of an anomaly thus beating the 3 second delay. As you can imagine 3 seconds with engine out at initial climb really sucks up a lot of energy.
If I ever finish the test I?ll post the results.
__________________
Don Stiver
RV8 "Little Pill" N6371S, Merritt Island, Fl.
BPE IO-390, Dual P-mag, MT 3-blade, AFP system
Steen Skybolt: Sold
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