SERVICE BULLETIN 14-08-29 - Page 6

rvbuilder2002 · #51 10-02-2014, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV10inOz

Ahhh Scott, pardon me for poking fun at you, but you are not truly accounting for the job, and this is why people go broke thinking they are charging enough?.but are not.

I hope you are not offended by my post as that is not the point. Too many folk expect everything for nothing, and they even expect that of Vans no doubt. Maybe it is a mindset thing but my point is even in ABE?.it is not as free as you might think.

No personal offense at all, and I hope that is reciprocal when I say that even though aviation is expensive (everywhere), with experimental aircraft we have some freedoms to influence the cost (if we choose to use them). Here in the states anyway. It sounds like you are quoting repair costs that would have been the same if it had been a certificated aircraft. That makes your charges only relevant for Aust., because here in the states (and other places), an owner doesn't have to use a certificated aircraft weld repair person. I also think of it as crazy to be paying shop rate for someone to travel two hrs round trip to do an inspection before the repair has begun (over here, the owner would pull the mount, take it to a shop that does specialty welding (race car fabrication for example) and get the job done with a quality that is equivalent to your certified aircraft welder at a fraction of your cost.

I am not naive about charging for this type of work. I ran my own business (successfully for a number of years) doing specialty work on aircraft (RV's and certificated).
The point of my original post (which probably wasn't conveyed very well) was that because of your rules being so different, your quoted cost is not a good bench mark for what this work should cost an RV-10 owner here in the states. If someone does pay a shop that much, my guess is that shop would not be doing to many more of those jobs.

It would be interesting to hear what the engine mount welding/repair charges were for the couple of other RV-10s here in the states that have required the weld repair. My guess is that it was a fraction of what you are quoting.

Mike S · #52 10-02-2014, 09:07 AM

Apples vs. oranges...............

vic syracuse · #53 10-02-2014, 11:54 AM

Since you asked, Scott, I spent $200 getting my mount welded by a certified welder. I admire whomever was able at Van's to weld the internal brace while it was still mounted to the aircraft. I had to take mine off, which meant removing the engine. all told, it was about 35-40 hours of my time and the welding costs, plus new elastomers and engine mounts.

Vic

rvbuilder2002 · #54 10-02-2014, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vic syracuse

Since you asked, Scott, I spent $200 getting my mount welded by a certified welder. I admire whomever was able at Van's to weld the internal brace while it was still mounted to the aircraft. I had to take mine off, which meant removing the engine. all told, it was about 35-40 hours of my time and the welding costs, plus new elastomers and engine mounts.

Vic

Thanks for the info Vic. That is more in line with what I would have expected.
To clarify, our welder didn't do any of the welding with the mount attached to the airplane, but he did do it with the engine still attached to the mount. We pulled the entire assembly off the front of the fuselage, and he welded it while it was hanging (lifted as high as we could get it to improve access from the bottom) from an engine hoist.
That is why in the SB it mentions that if you have the ability to do the weld repair on site, you can save a bit of time by leaving the engine attached to the engine mount.

RV10inOz · #55 10-02-2014, 04:02 PM

Mike I can't agree. This is not apples Vs oranges, more like one variety of apple to another.

This is a global community, a large number of Vans customers are not in the USA where the costs of doing business are far more reasonable.

I am intrigued as to why you think any contractor called out to do an inspection, to see if the job was able to be executed on my site, is not billable, and including his travel time back again. They did not charge milage on top of that. The company still has to pay the employee whether he is welding, doing paperwork, cleaning up or driving to my job site. I expect to pay that. For that matter, most companies here will absorb the mileage if charging the full rate per hour (I do) but if the client wants to penny pinch and pay a reduced travel rate, guess what, the get slugged mileage.

The issue of using a certified aviation welder is not a USA vs AUS thing. The RV10 is the BEST ABE aircraft out there in so many ways, bang for buck, and we do a lot of hours so the aim is to keep ours that way. I was not about to have any old welder have a crack at it. We needed the plane in the air again and no half measures would do. The Vans product deserves no less. The company we contracted is known as one of the very best in Australia, most down here can probably guess who. So sure, we paid a premium but for premium service. They also repaired a cracked and spare step while they were there.

As for legal matters. Complying with a SB is a serious matter. Many argue you do not have to. But wait till you are in court explaining why XYZ happened. So considering I did not do any welding on the airframe at all (just as well

) I can't claim to have constructed those parts so I do not feel I can sign out a repair that I am not qualified to do myself or to judge the quality and compliance of with respect to the SB. The certified welder can and supplies a declaration for the log book.

Many will argue…you don't have to do that. Maybe not, but knowing well a very high profile famous GA engineer/manufacturer/Attorney at Law from a little town in OK, and the law suits he has been a witness to, and how they pan out, it is not so easy to just say….no not my problem.

So there is some conservatism in my approach.

I could have removed the engine from the frame and taken it to Archerfield. That would have taken me an additional 3-4 + hours out of my working day, swap cars with my wife (won't fit in my 2 door sports car) and the $100 in car costs. Add to that the extra time in remove and refit which Vic has confirmed is not insignificant.

I actually think it was truly cheaper to pay them to inspect, prepare, manufacture and do the job, than us removing the mount and taking it to the shop.

My whole point here is to highlight to people that Experimental aviation is a great sector to be in, but far too many think it is almost free. If we are to maintain our Vans products to a high standard, as the maker intended, it comes with a responsibility to do it right and that costs one way or the other. Whether it is measured or not.

vic syracuse · #56 10-02-2014, 04:45 PM

Scott, I can see that detaching the mount from the frame and leaving it attached to the engine could have saved some time. I didn't have a TIG welder here to be able to do that (I'm in the market for one now, though).

Vic

Mike S · #57 10-02-2014, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV10inOz

Mike I can't agree. This is not apples Vs oranges, more like one variety of apple to another.

If you like, fine with me. I am just pointing out what you did is not the same as what others like Scott or Vic have done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV10inOz

I am intrigued as to why you think any contractor called out to do an inspection, to see if the job was able to be executed on my site, is not billable, and including his travel time back again.

If you make the choice to call someone out to your place, of course you should expect to pay for their time, and travel.

If however you take the part to someone to have the work done, then you should not have to pay their rate for your time/travel.

Cumquats and cucumbers .....................

RV10inOz · #58 10-03-2014, 01:55 AM

Hey Mike,

Quote:

If you make the choice to call someone out to your place, of course you should expect to pay for their time, and travel. Agreed?thats what I said

If however you take the part to someone to have the work done, then you should not have to pay their rate for your time/travel. Who ever said anything like that???

Now I am confused.

Anyhow, have a good weekend.

Mike S · #59 10-03-2014, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV10inOz

Hey Mike,

Now I am confused.

GREAT, now my work here is done.

Parsnips and pomegranates...................................... ................

RV10inOz · #60 10-03-2014, 04:18 PM

OK, if thats what floats your boat.

Fill ya boots!

But can you answer my question?

Just in addition to that, as Vic pointed out with the extra hours he had invested in the SB compliance, whether it is Vic's travel time or the contractor's, it has a cost. And if one is truly honest with their maths, it has to be costed at a reasonable rate too.

ABE ownership is a great thing, but most folk do selective accounting (usually for their wives to hear

) but very few realise it is more than just few, oil & filter and a few plugs.