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09-28-2014, 12:28 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Menomonee Falls, WI
Posts: 145
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I too am watching this thread closely as I'm approaching this point in my build. I'm vacuuming up any advice given!
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09-28-2014, 12:56 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Secluded Lake,Alaska (AK49)
Posts: 359
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Go for it
I would not hesitate to drill it apart and replace the web. PM me with your e-mail address and I can talk you through it. I have been doing this kind of work profesionally for over tweenty years, and passing along the tricksfor ten.
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09-28-2014, 03:37 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 2,692
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillL
Reactionary posts and decisions are best avoided and confronted with facts. NO ONE HAS REFUTED VANS RECOMMENDATIONS. Scott has said why (using the OP's dimensions) the dimensions are important from a structural stand point.
The real question (at least for me) is around the original measurements. I have tried to measure these danged countersinks and wished many times for a proper depth gage - I found one on ebay(with calibration ring). I tried many times to measure countersinks with diametral and protrusion and it resulted in many different dimensions. The best one is a rivet and a very straight edge to see if it is proud or sunken. Flush is easy to quantify, larger/smaller is not.
If the OP is 100% satisfied with the measured dimensions, then the case is closed. This is important, as it is a significant undertaking to replace the spar and the opportunity for additional issues is increased.
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Bill,
I think you will be happy to have that in your toolbox. I have one (of somewhat different design) that I used on occasion.
__________________
Bill Pendergrass
ME/AE '82
RV-7A: Flying since April 15, 2012. 850 hrs
YIO-360-M1B, mags, CS, GRT EX and WS H1s & A/P, Navworx
Unpainted, polished....kinda'... Eyeballin' vinyl really hard.
Yeah. The boss got a Silhouette Cameo 4 Xmas 2019.
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09-29-2014, 10:39 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vbug
The countersinks are primed with a qtip that's why the look so bad but are indeed uniform and smooth!
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I don't have much else to add to this thread other than to tell you - it's obvious you are detail oriented....but...might I humbly suggest you throw away the Q-tip, get an alodine pen and spend your time on something else more productive!
Sometimes you need to find some levity in building these things. Meant in fun I promise - but I couldn't resist!
Cheers,
Stein
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09-30-2014, 12:23 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SLC UT
Posts: 68
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This thread is gonna give me a heart attack.
I'm just about ready to rivet my skins on- but my spar looks VERY similar to the original poster's...
I approached these countersinks with much trepidation- I went REALLY slow to be sure I didn't over-countersink, as I knew the ramifications would lead to a TON of lost time, of which I have very little .
The instructions in the wing section said to make a "test patch" dimple on .032, and adjust the countersink until the dimple fits snug in the hole. This is the method I used, and wound up with .2125 diameter countersunk holes. The test aluminum barely fits in there, and may even ride a little high. Again, I was very concerned with over-drilling here.
My LE went on fine and the skin/spar lays good and flush...
Now looking back at the instructions in the construction manual, it says if there's a dimple, go "a few clicks" deeper and that should be enough. These two methods are contradictory. A few clicks deeper (at least on my microstop) will get you almost nowhere- and certainly lead to the skin riding high on the spar- a few clicks certainly wont compensate for the .032 sitting in the hole. I just don't see how a rivet in a countersink sitting .005 below flush would be able to accept the dimple.
I've looked through 43.13, and a couple books and couldn't find anything on the subject- what would be considered the maximum countersink diameter?
I sure hope that simply following the instructions didn't lead me down an expensive and extremely time consuming path....again (z-brackets)
Here's to hoping to wake up to some good news/encouragement...
DB
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09-30-2014, 06:22 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Clarion, Pennsylvania
Posts: 550
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Dave, here is an older thread with countersink diameters. The calculated diameter shown for .032 agree with my own empirical experience. It looks like yours are right on.
http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...288#post472288
__________________
-Andy Turner
RV-10 N784JC
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09-30-2014, 07:34 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 526
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Just thinking about alternative solutions and throwing this out for consideration. The countersinks are too deep for .032. Are they too deep for .040? Several builders have made one piece upper an lower wing skins of .040 in the past. Could this be an alternative solution? Would it be easier than removing and replacing the spar? Acceptable to Vans?
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09-30-2014, 08:12 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SLC UT
Posts: 68
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Thanks, Andy! Monitoring this frequency....
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09-30-2014, 08:48 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Indepenence, Oregon
Posts: 342
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When I was starting my -6A in 1994, I was curious about how countersinking, single and double dimples worked. I did some testing that you might try.
Using narrow strips of some scrap material the same thickness as the spar and skin. Drill and countersink a line of holes making the countersinks of varying depths. Rivet the two together. Try some double dimple skins.
Now section thru the rivets and skins leaving about 2/3 of the rivet intact. I used a Dremel and a cutting wheel, the type that break easily, find the thin diamond ones. Polish the cut edge on some 320 wet/dry and finish with finer paper until you can examine how rivet filled the hole and the dimple shaped itself to the countersink.
I did it with double dimples, oversized holes, badly made dimples and under and over countersunk holes. It is amazing how much the rivets expand in the holes and dimples reshape to the countersink. This was long before all the different types of dimple dies were available.
It was an educational experience that was worth the time.
__________________
Bruce Patton
Rans S-20 Raven 796S flying since 2019 (slowly)
RV-6A 596S flying since '99 (Sold)
HP-18 5596S flying since '89
RV-10 996S flying since 2014, quick build wing and slow build fues., - dual Skyviews with complete system, two radio and not much else. Interior completely finished with Zolatone. CF plenum. 1624 lbs, FLYING after a 21.5 month build.
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09-30-2014, 08:51 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NC25
Posts: 3,507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad walton
Just thinking about alternative solutions and throwing this out for consideration. The countersinks are too deep for .032. Are they too deep for .040? Several builders have made one piece upper an lower wing skins of .040 in the past. Could this be an alternative solution? Would it be easier than removing and replacing the spar? Acceptable to Vans?
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Negative.
Each rivet joint is compromised by the incorrect size hole and will not develop the needed shear strength compromising the strength of the wing. I am sure no one wants to pull a few "G's" and have the wing fail where the skin was attached to the spar.
__________________
Gary A. Sobek
NC25 RV-6 Flying
3,400+ hours
Where is N157GS
Building RV-8 S/N: 80012
To most people, the sky is the limit.
To those who love aviation, the sky is home.
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