A call from NavCanada

[Canadian_JOY]

J.F. - while I agree with your stance on FSS, weather info etc, I can't agree that Nav Canada does a good job for we "little guys", irrespective of price charged. In fact I'd say they are a service provider to the airlines, and that we little guys get the crumbs. That includes some pretty egregious airspace grabs, with Ottawa as one of the best examples of how Nav Can does its best to make its job of handling airliners easy, at the expense of Gen Av/VFR flyers. The Nav Can policy on digital map data is similarly not in favour of the little guys. As a result we're more than a few years behind the power curve when it comes to the digital cockpit.

OK, I'll step off my soap box now... The usual disclaimers apply.

[Ron RV8]

Unfortunately, although we pay our NavCanada fees, they can and do on occasion, refuse VFR flights to transit Vancouver Class C airspace...

Seems to me that if they collect the fee they should be required to provide the service...

I don't know about the rest of the country...

[NDrv8r]

We took an Alaska trip basically along the AlCan highway. We took off from Bismarck, topped off fuel at Scoby MT and cleared customs at Calgary. The CanPass system worked good. The fees at Calgary however......$150 ramp fee at Landmark in addition to a $82 landing fee! yikes! I was perturbed to say the least and did not argue the charges as I did not trust my ability to state my case in anything other than four letter words.

We just got our NavCanada invoice for $28. This included several IFR legs. The NavCanada fees I can take, the Ramp fee is flippen ridiculous. I can understand a $150 ramp fee for a G4 or something, but a 1800 pound RV? I did get the message though....Calgary does not want any GA planes, and Landmark does not want my business.

It put a sour taste in an otherwise great trip.

[Jermechanic]

I hate to see anyone paying fees they weren't aware of. It looks like Whetstone/DelBonita would have been a good choice when heading to Alberta. I cross the border regularly and have never had to pay a ramp or landing fee. Just do a little research before hand. Avoid the major centers such as CYYC- Calgary ot CYVR- VAncouver etc. They don't really want small piston pounders there thus the hefty fees. Below is a link to the COPA page as well as a list of Canadian airports of entry.

http://archive.copanational.org/Plac...d=2&ap_id=1184

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/do-rb/services/aoe-eng.html

[Fred.Stucklen]

On my last trip to Alaska via Canada, I stopped at Lethbridge (CYQL). No extra fee there at all....

Originally Posted by NDrv8r

We took an Alaska trip basically along the AlCan highway. We took off from Bismarck, topped off fuel at Scoby MT and cleared customs at Calgary. The CanPass system worked good. The fees at Calgary however......$150 ramp fee at Landmark in addition to a $82 landing fee! yikes! I was perturbed to say the least and did not argue the charges as I did not trust my ability to state my case in anything other than four letter words.

We just got our NavCanada invoice for $28. This included several IFR legs. The NavCanada fees I can take, the Ramp fee is flippen ridiculous. I can understand a $150 ramp fee for a G4 or something, but a 1800 pound RV? I did get the message though....Calgary does not want any GA planes, and Landmark does not want my business.

It put a sour taste in an otherwise great trip.

[BlackhawkSP]

I wonder what the fine is for getting caught using a Canadian registration call sign (that's not yours) with ATC ? Evil Grin.

[kamikaze]

Originally Posted by Canadian_JOY

J.F. - while I agree with your stance on FSS, weather info etc, I can't agree that Nav Canada does a good job for we "little guys", irrespective of price charged. In fact I'd say they are a service provider to the airlines, and that we little guys get the crumbs. That includes some pretty egregious airspace grabs, with Ottawa as one of the best examples of how Nav Can does its best to make its job of handling airliners easy, at the expense of Gen Av/VFR flyers. The Nav Can policy on digital map data is similarly not in favour of the little guys. As a result we're more than a few years behind the power curve when it comes to the digital cockpit.

OK, I'll step off my soap box now... The usual disclaimers apply.

Oh, as an overall corporate strategy, there's no doubt we're small potatoes, and we are not their focus. That would be partly due to the fact the airlines own NavCanada, and because we represent such a small share of revenue.

Remember how I said the 70$ was subsidized? The true estimated cost, if it weren't subsidized, has been estimated at 1200$/Year. If our 25000 strong aircraft fleet was paying that much a year, we'd probably get MUCH better service But then that 25 000 number would drop pretty rapidly, as that is obviously not a sustainable price for most GA owners/pilots.

We're a minority in terms of business volume, what'cha gonna do ... ask for regulation?

I agree with you on the charts front, that's a real shame ... at least it's starting to move. The paralysis is liability driven, they're terrified their charts will be displayed wrong, and someone will CFIT because of it, and they'll get sued. I'm not sure there's even any precedent for this?

The big problem is many of the services and products we use are NOT used by the airlines. AWWS, FSS, VNC's, etc ... all for GA only, and getting the GA sector alone to pay for all that is tough.

Technically, having more competition in everything other than the ATC itself (notably chart products, flight planning services, etc.) would help, but I just don't think we have the critical mass to support that either ...

[vlittle]

Nav Canada does a remarkably good job for a regulated monopoly. The $140 per year that I pay for 2 aircraft is not the issue, nor is the land-grab of controlled airspace optimized for the benefit of commercial operations.

What I object to is the lack of electronic databases. The cost and inconvenience of paper charts based on a 20th century model of aviation is unforgivable. In our airspace, paper charts are almost useless to the point of being a safety hazard.

Nav Canada had to make a duplicate chart on the reverse or our VTA just to show airspace and frequencies... And it is still illegible. Flying around in busy airspace with a confusing chart glued to your nose is not safe. A nice database, with popup frequency info is so much better.

Oh, and one more thing.... The FAA is studying the NAVCAN model for implementation in the USA as a paid service. You're welcome!

[NDrv8r]

Originally Posted by Fred.Stucklen

On my last trip to Alaska via Canada, I stopped at Lethbridge (CYQL). No extra fee there at all....

Yep - my bad - I let the nice straight course line affect my planning and did not call and confirm fees. Lesson learned. Actually my NavCanada bill was $10 higher for landing at a "major airport" as well. Ok here's the mantra.. repeat with me..Small airplane goes with small airport, again..oh never mind, you get the picture.

[Tom Martin]

Vern
I am using electronic Canadian Charts and Approach Plates on my iPad with ForeFlight. I much prefer them to paper and although there is a cost to use ForeFight, it is much much less then it would be to have all the legal paper that I would have required to have gone coast to coast this year. Or is there other electronic information that you are looking for? The CFS is also online now.
Besides that how would one even fit that many maps and charts in the front seat of a Rocket!