VFR on top

[rvmills]

Originally Posted by eddieseve

Dumb question from a VFR pilot.

If your alternate nearby air port was broken scattered, why not just head there, descend when safe to do so and then fly under the overcast to your destination?

Or did I misunderstand the weather?

Regards

Eddy,

No dumb questions! He said he didn't file IFR, so there would have been no alternate filed. Even with an IFR flight plan, some weather conditions at the destination don't require an alternate either, though its good to plan outs. His VFR planning may or may not have included an alternate. Also, there can be a marked difference between scattered and broken (the wx mentioned in your question), and safely flying under an overcast depends greatly on the height of the overcast, and the surrounding terrain and obstacles, and we don't have any info on that in this situation. Hope that adds value!

Cheers,
Bob

[Arlen]

If you really do have an instrument rating, then I am concerned about your knowledge base. But, even without that instrument rating, unless you were fuel critical or without engine power and absolutely had no other choice other than to violate the rules and descend into IMC, then you broke the rule of what should be basic VFR/IFR knowledge that you learn in perhaps your very first flying lesson.

Having said that, however, I am sure you are not alone amongst the pilots on the forum in breaking this particular rule.

[terrykohler]

1. Instrument rated, but not instrument current or qualified (suggested by original posting/questions). This needs to be recognized.
2. Not much attention paid to weather - assuming it will get better?
3. Conscious decision to enter IMC without clearance.
4. Fuel limited? Is that why there was no attempt to seek out or maintain VFR?
5. Any thought about declaring an emergency?
6. Preflight planning did not include alternatives (this is very basic, particularly for VFR flight planning).

Advice to original poster:
Contact a flight instructor.
Go back to basics - tell the instructor you need help with ADM. An experienced instructor should be able to take you thru many scenarios to help sharpen your decision making. This is not something you should try to do on your own - even professional golfers have coaches.
Finally, debrief yourself after each flight. Ask yourself if you would have made the same decisions with other family members sitting beside you.
We all make mistakes. Hopefully, we survive the really bad ones and learn from them. You've gotten good advice from many of the above posters. Really glad to see you writing about your experience rather than everyone else reading about it in a newspaper.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP

[Jesse]

You said that it was VFR at your destination, but this does not mean it wasn't already overcast.

As was mentioned, asking for an IFR clearance to descend or go somewhere else are your only legal options. Special VFR gives you tighter cloud clearances, but it doesn't let you descend into an overcast. Personally, I file IFR just about everywhere I go over 50nm. Then I don't end up in these situations. If ATC wants to send me somewhere I don't want to go en route, and the conditions are good enough, I just cancel and go VFR. It's much easier to do this than to go VFR and get a clearance later. Sometimes ATC will give it to you and sometimes they'll send you to FSS. Either way it's a hassle due to bad planning.

For those out there reading who don't have an IFR ticket, please get one. The statement, "a VFR pilot is only half a pilot" is not too far off. A VFR pilot who travels will often find himself either scud running (dangerous) or getting stuck on top (dangerous and illegal if you descend through it any way).

I think the only legal way to descend through an overcast VFR is by declaring an emergency.

[RV10inOz]

Just a point of contention, but in our part of the world, the concept, the rule and the notion of VFR ON TOP is strictly an IFR procedure.

We adopted this from the greatest GA country on earth, so I would assume that the rules we adopted were as per those in the USA.

If you fly a VFR flight there is truly no such thing as VFR ON TOP. Unless you meet the criteria for VFR flight?..which involves being able to navigate by visual ground reference to determine your position. Thus hours on end above anything more than SCT (4/8ths) is not VFR flight.

So I think by what I read the OP was in strife long before the cloud busting.

I have seen many posts on here over the years about light IFR and all this sort of thing, and I fear many do not respect that IFR is IFR. Nothing else. IMC and VMC may have gradients but the rules do not. And for good reason as has been shown here.

Folks, if there is one way to get CASA or FAA or CAA's of the world to ban ABE's from IFR ops, then this is a good start.

Aspire to be professional and not treat flight planning so disrespectfully for the rules, either VFR or IFR.

Glad you made it out unsafely, the alternative was worse.

[Jesse]

Originally Posted by RV10inOz

Just a point of contention, but in our part of the world, the concept, the rule and the notion of VFR ON TOP is strictly an IFR procedure.

We adopted this from the greatest GA country on earth, so I would assume that the rules we adopted were as per those in the USA.

If you fly a VFR flight there is truly no such thing as VFR ON TOP. Unless you meet the criteria for VFR flight?..which involves being able to navigate by visual ground reference to determine your position. Thus hours on end above anything more than SCT (4/8ths) is not VFR flight.

So I think by what I read the OP was in strife long before the cloud busting.

I believe our rules allow reference to the horizon, not just the ground. As I think was already mentioned, VFR ON TOP is an IFR situation. VFR OVER THE TOP is for VFR. The OP was obviously the former, because the latter requires access to the ground with appropriate cloud clearances.

The truth be told, many of us have probably done similar to what the OP did or worse, but (at least many of us) we have learned from that and try hard to avoid those situations.

[60av8tor]

Originally Posted by Jesse

Personally, I file IFR just about everywhere I go over 50nm. Then I don't end up in these situations. If ATC wants to send me somewhere I don't want to go en route, and the conditions are good enough, I just cancel and go VFR. It's much easier to do this than to go VFR and get a clearance later.

This is an excellent tactic while traveling CC to manage the OP's scenario.

[N427EF]

First off, I would suggest you do not admit to doing such things on the internet

Excellent advice!

Although I am rated IFR, I cannot by any stretch keep current and simply being current is just not enough in my book to be safe. So all my flying is strictly VFR
and sometimes VFR on top with visual on an on obstructed horizon.
This happens quite a lot along the coast where during summertime a layer of marine fog covers portions of the coastline and parts of the inland.
At certain times of the year the entire central valley can be covered in fog up to about 2000 feet and stretch 100 miles accros from the coastal range to the foothills of the Sierras. Crystal clear weather for the rest of California and an easy decision to cross over the top in VFR. No need to complicate thing with new rules.

The very best tool that has come along to avoid the situation the OP found himself in is ADS-B weather. Get it and you know what I am talking about!

[bpattonsoa]

So what is it officially called when you have a clear destination but complete cloud cover over a portion of the route. I have always thought it was "VFR on top", and legal if you maintain the correct cloud clearance.

Not the best situation to be in if you have an emergency, but sometimes the only way to get somewhere.

(Just signed up for IFR ground school yesterday at the EAA hanger on 7S5. Spots still available, starts soon, $300 for the class and $150 for books. Once a week.)

[zav6a]

" For those out there reading who don't have an IFR ticket, please get one. The statement, "a VFR pilot is only half a pilot" is not too far off. A VFR pilot who travels will often find himself either scud running (dangerous) or getting stuck on top (dangerous and illegal if you descend through it any way"

Way off topic, but not going to get an IFR. There is another safer option for me. Dont go if it is at all edgy. I'll spend the time studying the weather to make better decisions.

If I were located in a flatter part of the country, or flew there often, had a more compelling need to fly, and could practice often, I would probably get an IFR ticket. As it is, my missions almost always involve flying over the mountains and the clouds over high mountains have rocks, ice, and nasty turbulence, and major up and downdrafts in them. Safely clear of clouds is the only way I will fly. As a husband, father, son, and grandfather, not even going to tempt myself with the capability a ticket would provide. If I spent the money and time to get it and to stay current, I know there would be tremendous pressure to use it. And I know that in my situation there is no way I could possibly maintain the skills necessary to actually do it safely. The accident reports are full of evidence supporting that.

I get to fly 30 or so times a year, most of those cross country and in last 10 years have not had a close call with clouds. That is not a matter of chance, but a matter of choice.

Not arguing the value of an IFR ticket, just pointing out that there should not be universal rules about what makes us qualified to fly.