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  #1  
Old 12-12-2006, 09:28 AM
markpsmith markpsmith is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 17
Default All in one EFIS

I know we have talked about the Enigma by MGLAvioincs on threads before. It has a GPS/EMS/EFIS/Moving Map/Terrain all built in to one system. I was curious with all this XM weather talk if they were planning on getting into the mix. It turns out they are. Also, they plan to include a NAV/COM and possible plans for a built in transponder.

Here are the links if you have not seen it:
http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr...ma/enigma.html
http://mglavionics.co.za/Enigmapage.html

Obviously with newly developed all in one instruments such as these we can go on for days talking about redunancy and reliability. Only time and real world results will tell. However, I think this is a great step towards making avionics even more affordable and adaptable. Not to mention fewer holes in the panel.

Below is an email with response that I sent the company today:

>Do you plan to offer XM Weather and Radio on the moving map
>display?

Yes, we have signed the various agreements required. It is a little
on the backburner for now as we need to get a few other things
finished first but it is just a matter of time. You will need to buy
the WX receiver (we use the WxWorks one) and you will need to buy the
data subscription from them.


>Also will the ILS/NAV feature support NAV/COMs other that the Garmin SL30?

Here is a big secret: We have our VHF radio nearly done and the
NAV/COM will follow shortly thereafter. They are so cheap, you will
not even want to look at anything else.
Other than that, no radios are currently supported as the SL30 is the
only one that has a serial interface. Other radios have an ARINC
interface that could be supported by Enigma if demand warrants it but
the interface is relatively costly.

>Do you plan to have an "all in one" system eventually to include
>remote mounted (or maybe built in) COMM, Transponder, VOR/ILS
>receivers?

Yes. This goes hand in hand with our RF developments and also a
larger panel called the Odyssey (a 10.4" screen size Enigma if you
will). Transponder is currently a paper project - not sure if we will
attempt it.

Cheers

Rainier


---------------------------------------------------------------
MGL Avionics, MGL Software
Advanced digital flight instrumentation systems
http://www.mglavionics.co.za
The home of the Embedded Pascal development system
http://users.iafrica.com/r/ra/rainier

Physical: 5 Fuchsia Street, Heldervue, Somerset West
Postal: Postnet Suite 325, Private Bag X15, Somerset West 7129
Tel: ++2721-855-1383
Fax: ++2721-855-0528
E-mail: Rainier@IAfrica.com


-Mark
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  #2  
Old 12-12-2006, 10:22 AM
Jamie's Avatar
Jamie Jamie is offline
 
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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Default

Mark:

I have no doubt that your product is a fine example of embedded engineering and I'm always glad to see another player in the EFIS market. I'm downright excited to see someone else offering NAV/COM options.

Just a review here from a random member of the general public -- I think the biggest problem you're going to have with that product out of the gate is with aesthetics -- particularly the industrial-style keypad in bright yellow. Simply making the keys dark gray or just black outlined in white would be a great change. I have no doubt that the hardware is up to snuff and it looks weather resistant which is of course a good thing. But in the end, often times it's looks that drive the decision making process. Just look how many (not all) people here in RV land build a taildragger because they think they look cool or shell out a grand more for an engine w/ horizontal induction just to not have the scoop on the cowl.

Of course, all of this aesthetics stuff is completely subjective so maybe others will have a different perception.

Sorry to sound so blunt (it's really not intentional), just trying to be honest and provide some public feedback.

Have you considered allowing the keypad to be remotely mounted? I think you would really be on to something then -- I would love to have something like that mounted on a center console a la my friend's Beechjet.

Best of luck with your endeavor...

PS: Embedded Pascal? I'm an embedded software engineer and that's a first for me! I guess I learned something new today.
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  #3  
Old 12-12-2006, 11:13 AM
Ironflight's Avatar
Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,256
Default Time will tell

Jamie - I don't think it's Mark's product - he's building an -8 here in Texas, and I believe this product is from a South African company....

To me, the first thing I look at in an EFIS (A true EFIS - one that is designed to integrated almost everything in the cockpit) is reliability behind the scenes - and that means the AHRS design. If that isn't robust and demonstrated - and I want to know the background of the developers as well - then all the aesthetics of the panel, graphics and displays never even come in to play. (By the way, I agree on your comments on this one Jamie!). My bottom line is that I want to know that the design of the AHRS isn't going to leave me stranded in the clouds with only a backup system.

The advancements in EFIS and other glass cockpit hardware and software are coming so fast that when I was building, my primary goal was to be flying before my system was obsolete. For someone like Mark who is working on the Empennnage (and has time to watch the market for the next year or more), I expect that there will be more new developments and time for these and other systems to give us more confidence in their reliability.

As always, just my thoughts...my advice is to watch all the systems as they develop, and look at their track record for reliability as people start putting hours on them.

Paul
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RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
RV-6 (By Marriage) - N164MS - "Mikey"
RV-3B - N13PL - "Tsamsiyu"
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  #4  
Old 12-12-2006, 11:31 AM
markpsmith markpsmith is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 17
Default Yellow keypad...

I agree with ditching the yellow keypad. Hopefully they will change the color in the newer versions (Odyssey). I am partial to the keypad idea since I use it in the F-16. It makes for an efficient interface.



The company is very open to suggestions. The person I emailed only took about 10 minutes to respond.

Paul is correct regarding my situation. It will probably be at least 3-4 years until I finish my kit. By then, hopefully more all in one packages will be available to choose from.

Mark
RV-8 Emp
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  #5  
Old 12-12-2006, 12:24 PM
N674P N674P is offline
 
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Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 226
Default

I get to watch for several years, too. Since I really don't have the time or interest to learn the constantly changing field of PFM (pure friggen magic!), I put in my request for Plug n Play. One box, connect the inputs, turn it on and get good, reliable output, and I'll be happy.
Building is one thing - I can touch and see what's going on and enjoy it. Electrons just don't give me the same warm, fuzzy feeling...
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  #6  
Old 12-12-2006, 12:35 PM
Mike S's Avatar
Mike S Mike S is online now
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Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by N674P
I get to watch for several years, too. Since I really don't have the time or interest to learn the constantly changing field of PFM (pure friggen magic!), I put in my request for Plug n Play. One box, connect the inputs, turn it on and get good, reliable output, and I'll be happy.
Building is one thing - I can touch and see what's going on and enjoy it. Electrons just don't give me the same warm, fuzzy feeling...
AMEN

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Just make it big enough to see---------or better yet, one "brain", and various sized screens to fit users needs.

Mike
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  #7  
Old 12-12-2006, 01:12 PM
Jamie's Avatar
Jamie Jamie is offline
 
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Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 2,295
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight
Jamie - I don't think it's Mark's product - he's building an -8 here in Texas, and I believe this product is from a South African company....
Oops...sorry Mark. I would rather be an RV-16 driver than a pixel pusher any day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight
To me, the first thing I look at in an EFIS (A true EFIS - one that is designed to integrated almost everything in the cockpit) is reliability behind the scenes - and that means the AHRS design. If that isn't robust and demonstrated - and I want to know the background of the developers as well - then all the aesthetics of the panel, graphics and displays never even come in to play. (By the way, I agree on your comments on this one Jamie!). My bottom line is that I want to know that the design of the AHRS isn't going to leave me stranded in the clouds with only a backup system.
Agreed. I like to tell people I don't know much of anything, but I feel like I know a little about aviation and a good bit about gizmos and software. I've seen all sorts of stuff in my 10 years in embedded software (I know, not a lot of time but I'm only 30). This is why I like the Dynon guys so much. They're straight-forward and when I talk to them at airshows they're always very open about what their hardware actually is and what it isn't. They're also very open to suggestions. I just wish they were based here in Atlanta.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight
The advancements in EFIS and other glass cockpit hardware and software are coming so fast that when I was building, my primary goal was to be flying before my system was obsolete. For someone like Mark who is working on the Empennnage (and has time to watch the market for the next year or more), I expect that there will be more new developments and time for these and other systems to give us more confidence in their reliability.
As painful as the decision-making process is, it is indeed one of the more enjoyable parts of building one of these airplanes.
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  #8  
Old 12-12-2006, 01:53 PM
Mike S's Avatar
Mike S Mike S is online now
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Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
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Default Wouldnt it be nice if--------

After mulling this over for a while, I think I have found the answer to all of this.

All that needs to happen is for ALL of the folks making electronic gizmos to make them all talk to each other, one common style of plug, one common data "language".

Just like your home stereo system for instance. Or the magic box that I am using to send this message----------O.K., so the computer uses different plugs for different devices, but I can plug in a brand X screen into a brand Y, or Z comp and it will work. You know what I am getting at.

Now that I have solved this aviation dilemma, all of the various manufactures should be able to implement it in the next month or so.

Waiting patiently,
Mike
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  #9  
Old 12-12-2006, 03:46 PM
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fodrv7 fodrv7 is offline
 
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Location: Torquay, Victoria, Australia
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Default REDUNDANCY

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpsmith

Obviously with newly developed all in one instruments such as these we can go on for days talking about redunancy and reliability. -Mark
Redundancy is available for some of these EFIS systems.
GRT offer a Dual AHRS package and multiple screens which are actually MFDs (Multi Function Displays.)

An All in One display, however, looses the advantage of MFDs.

If the weak link in the system is the display, then a system with MFDs is at an advantage of All in One displays.

Pete.
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  #10  
Old 12-12-2006, 04:48 PM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fodrv7
An All in One display, however, looses the advantage of MFDs.

If the weak link in the system is the display, then a system with MFDs is at an advantage of All in One displays.

Pete.
Which, in a nutshell, is why I went with a multi-display system Pete - you said it much more succinctly than I ever could!


When we converted the Space Shuttle fleet to glass, we incorporated 7 screens in the front cockpit. Each of those were fed by redundant power busses, and connected in a complex way with our five general purpose computers. At first, I despaired of ever figuring out the redundancy scheme (old brains being less flexible), until I had a sudden realization - the system was so redundant, and essentially so automatic, that I didn't have to figure it out at all! It could take care of itself through about three failures, and if I had more than that, we were exceedingly unlucky (seeing as how it was highly reliable as well....)

Paul
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Editor at Large - KITPLANES Magazine
RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
RV-6 (By Marriage) - N164MS - "Mikey"
RV-3B - N13PL - "Tsamsiyu"
A&P, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor
Dayton Valley Airpark (A34)
http://Ironflight.com
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