3-Pointing the 8...

[wera710]

Paul no one has said anything about anyone being a better this or that. We are just talking about how the -8 can, in fact, be three pointed. There is apparently a lot of misconception out there that says it can't or that it cannot do it well. Musing on WHY people think that it cannot, is not a negative commentary on folks who fly trigear and then transition to an RV and only wheel land them. Its simply a possible observation as to why new RV-TD guys gravitate to wheel landings as their predominent form of landing. The more experience one gains from practicing EITHER type of landing, the less they think one or the other cannot be done. So I am not sure what you are getting at. This entire conversation has been an attempt to get folks to practice more often. No where is anyone saying you suck if you can't do one of the other.

"Anybody here do a completely power off approach and landing to 3 point (in a RV)? "
Toolbuilder, yes. All the time. Every time we practice engine out (well, power off, anyway) landings. Its no different than a power off approach for a wheelie except your speed is slower on short final -- assuming you are normally coming in 5 to 10 mph faster for a wheel landing, which is typical if you are using them for cross winds. Our technique is to use no more than 20 degree of flaps until the field is assured, then full flaps while dropping the nose slightly, then flairing into the stall to get it slowed down as much as possible at contact - mainly because its practice not only to make the field, but to stop before hitting the cow or fence inconveniently placed in your emergancy landing spot in the real world. Again, probably not explaining that exactly. Which is why guys like Mike are out there for transition training.

[Toobuilder]

I do tail low wheelies in the -8 and Rocket most of the time, but I am capable of doing a 3 point if I drag it in under power. That said, I doubt my Rocket or -8 will 3 point at all with power off. There just isn't enough elevator when solo to make it happen. As it is, I run out of trim in the pattern well above my desired glide speed and I'm using the majority of stick travel maintaining that speed....There just isn't enough left to flare.

[Yen]

I have been doing 3 point landings for the last 20years of flying taildraggers. It was once suggested that I should do whelies. I tried it and didn't like it, so back to 3 pointing. I did it for 12 years in a Corby Starlet, no flaps and found it was OK to get on the back edge of the power curve, come down like a brick and at 100' push the nose down to get enough energy to flare.
I may try to wheel the RV4 on, just to see what it is like.

[David-aviator]

Originally Posted by wera710

Paul no one has said anything about anyone being a better this or that. We are just talking about how the -8 can, in fact, be three pointed. There is apparently a lot of misconception out there that says it can't or that it cannot do it well. Musing on WHY people think that it cannot, is not a negative commentary on folks who fly trigear and then transition to an RV and only wheel land them. Its simply a possible observation as to why new RV-TD guys gravitate to wheel landings as their predominent form of landing. The more experience one gains from practicing EITHER type of landing, the less they think one or the other cannot be done. So I am not sure what you are getting at. This entire conversation has been an attempt to get folks to practice more often. No where is anyone saying you suck if you can't do one of the other.

"Anybody here do a completely power off approach and landing to 3 point (in a RV)? "
Toolbuilder, yes. All the time. Every time we practice engine out (well, power off, anyway) landings. Its no different than a power off approach for a wheelie except your speed is slower on short final -- assuming you are normally coming in 5 to 10 mph faster for a wheel landing, which is typical if you are using them for cross winds. Our technique is to use no more than 20 degree of flaps until the field is assured, then full flaps while dropping the nose slightly, then flairing into the stall to get it slowed down as much as possible at contact - mainly because its practice not only to make the field, but to stop before hitting the cow or fence inconveniently placed in your emergancy landing spot in the real world. Again, probably not explaining that exactly. Which is why guys like Mike are out there for transition training.

As a neophyte talking with pros, I appreciate the time and effort of you-all sharing what you know and believe on the subject.

I am a current CFI and know about evaluating events in airplanes, making adjustments to get better results and agree, practice, practice is so important. But I have a huge hole in my flying back ground due to a lack of experience landing tail draggers. I am having difficulty making the necessary adjustments to get the 8 to land gracefully in the the 3 point attitude. So the input is welcome. Thanks.

To date I have 28 hours in the 8 with some 80 attempted landings from various approach set ups and flap settings with power on and off. So far wheel landings with power on and flaps 20 or 40 have worked best for me. Not always as graceful as I would like but more so than attempting 3 pointers.

I do not believe stopping distance is an issue. I am doing well with our 2200' of asphalt (or 1700' of parallel grass) and clearing tall trees. I believe runway behind the aircraft while waiting for a nearly stalled machine is easily recovered with light braking in the tail up wheel landing.

As mentioned earlier, I like the book "Stick and Rudder". With all the stuff written on the subject, this 1943 publication rings true with me most. Langewiesche has good marks for wheel landings in any airplane. But I will keep working on 3 pointers when conditions are right. I may get it one of these days. I am not concerned about a label if I don't, I have no EGO on this subject. What's important to me is confidence in getting the job done - like landing and not bending metal - and enjoying doing it. I never thought I would admit it, but I do like the tail dragger operation better than the 7A.

One comment about a prop strike doing wheel landings needs clarification. With longerons level, Grove airfoil gear legs and a Catto 68x74, the prop here is 14.4" above the floor. There is no way a prop strike will occur during a wheel landing unless the pilot is totally disconnected and pushes it over at very low speed. It can not be pushed over at higher landing speed.

[vuurwapen]

Interesting reading here. I came to the 8 from a C180 (I still fly the 180 as much if not more than the 8, have about 70 hours on the 8 in the last 7 months since acquisition).

Wheel landings in the 180, it is very much possible to nose over completely (not me, not my plane, not my video, hope nothing more than his pride was bruised and that he was back in the air soon after). I see people trying to "pin" the airplane forward, that's what I did at first until I was shown an old MAF document about wheel landing the 180. Trim for 500ft rate of descent with 12-14" MAP and one or two notches of flaps. Ease back slightly, not really a flare, just before touchdown, then reduce power as soon as the wheels touch. If I'm empty and I drop the flaps right after touchdown, the tail will drop pretty quick. See video here.

Full stall landings are incredibly easy. I don't have any "normal" ones on video, but here is one with a lot of brakes in approx. 120ft. Full flaps, about 50mph or less on short final, lots of flare and I'm playing with throttle to pick my touchdown point. Easy to stop in under 150ft, but if I have non-aviation folks inside I don't normally make such abrupt landings unless we're going in to a very short dirt strip.

In the 8, I normally come in at 65mph with a little power, no flare, keep the tail a tad low, let the mains touch and then reduce power and keep it straight. If I do my part it's pretty smooth and I don't feel like I'm going to nose over at all. I don't have any recent video, but here's one day and one night landing that's from January (2 weeks with the 8). Also, here's a landing at Catalina Island the week later.

If anyone has specifics on airspeeds or power settings for three pointing the RV8, or tips on improving the RV8 landings I posted (I do feel like I have progressed slightly in the months since, but they're fairly representative), I am all ears.

[colojo]

As with many things in life, it's not the arrows, it's the Indian.

[Low Pass]

For the sake of the archives: Despite the comments above, no one has ever said the -8 couldn't be 3 pointed. Comment was in fact made that *in the -8*, this was not as "comfortable" as wheel landing, or a "nose high" wheel landing.

Also, the -8 may run out of elevator authority (hit the stops) in the slow, high aoa condition. As in trying to make a 3 point landing, depending on specific cg. This might pose a safety concern for those not familiar. I personally ran out of elevator and landed pretty hard trying to 3 pt on my first flight (single occupant, heavy fuel, fwd cg). If I had known this, I wouldn't have attempted a 3 pt on my first landing.

[Tumper]

David,

I am transitioning to tail wheel and I was also having trouble judging my height above the ground and exactly where to flair. I had been looking at the end of the runway and trying to judge height from that prospective. My problem is exasperated because I have very limited vision in my left eye, so peripheral vision to the left is almost nonexistent. My instructor and I finally concluded I need to make a concerted effort to look at the ground out the left window alternately while checking pitch out the front. As you mentioned in your first post, this seems to be working much better for me now.

A few week after working on this I was reading through my July issue of AOPA ?Flight Training? magazine and found an article written by Rod Machado on the exact subject. The point was ?If older students are taught to rely on peripheral vision to flare the airplane, then they?ll have difficulty sensing their height above the ground ? especially if they wear corrective?. We loose peripheral vision as we grow older. This was exactly what you and I had concluded.

I hope this helps/encourages? and for everyone else this will be good for all of us to understand and consider (not that any of us are getting older).

If anyone would like to read the entire article just PM or email me and I?ll send you a copy.

[David-aviator]

Originally Posted by Tumper

David,

I am transitioning to tail wheel and I was also having trouble judging my height above the ground and exactly where to flair. I had been looking at the end of the runway and trying to judge height from that prospective. My problem is exasperated because I have very limited vision in my left eye, so peripheral vision to the left is almost nonexistent. My instructor and I finally concluded I need to make a concerted effort to look at the ground out the left window alternately while checking pitch out the front. As you mentioned in your first post, this seems to be working much better for me now.

A few week after working on this I was reading through my July issue of AOPA ?Flight Training? magazine and found an article written by Rod Machado on the exact subject. The point was ?If older students are taught to rely on peripheral vision to flare the airplane, then they?ll have difficulty sensing their height above the ground ? especially if they wear corrective?. We loose peripheral vision as we grow older. This was exactly what you and I had concluded.

I hope this helps/encourages? and for everyone else this will be good for all of us to understand and consider (not that any of us are getting older).

If anyone would like to read the entire article just PM or email me and I?ll send you a copy.

Thank you Dean. That pretty well confirms what I have learned. I have stopped trying to judge flare height over the nose but rely on a glance out the left side going into the flare, it works most of the time.

Curiously, on take off I have much better results staying on center line looking out the right side.

The issue of wheel landing vrs 3 pointer with the 8 is a matter of pilot choice IMHO. Same can be said about any airplane/pilot combination.

My favorite uncle who passed away recently in Alaska, was a bush pilot extraordinary for many years with his 0320 Super Cub. He could not function without it being an avid hunter and fisherman, at one point a licensed hunting/fishing guide. The Cub was on floats about half the season depending what was going on.

He would charter a helicopter to gain access to some favorite fishing or hunting site and carve out a 400' strip with a chain saw, axe and shovel. Some landing sites had a dog leg. I flew with him over the years into some of those spots, it was always a pleasure although being an airline pilot disinterested in TW ops at the time, I did not appreciate how flew the Cub. I do remember going into those sites, it was a power on approach, plop we were on and stopped just like that. It had to be a 3 pointer. Coming out it was full power (with a take off prop turning about 2400 rpm) stick forward tail up, stick back and we were flying in about the time to say it. Then it was throttle back to prevent an over speed.

In a recent conversation with his wife about how Jim flew the Cub, she responded it was always with the tail in the air, landing or taking off, I guess those were wheel landings she said. That must have been back at Homer Airport, in the bush it was a 3 pointer I am sure.

In his last days as I was building the 8 I tried to get him to talk to me about flying the Cub but he was too far gone with some sort of dementia. He was still smart enough though to know his days were numbered. He simply quit eating and checked out. Being just 6 years older than me, he was a roll model all my life since my earliest recollection. He enlisted in the USAF at age 18, got into the old aviation cadet program and graduated #1 in his class. I did likewise but graduated no where near #1 but somewhere in the middle. In my book no one was as good in an airplane as Uncle Jim. He was one of kind for sure.

[David-aviator]

.....not too shabby.

I am still not much good at 3 pointing the -8 but managing with wheel landings.

So how much runway is needed to wheel land the -8? I decided to measure it with a surveyors wheel. The spot where the aircraft turned off the grass onto asphalt was very clear and marked with a flag.

The runway approach is over trees, not real high but they are there and make difficult to use the first 200' of the runway. Typical touch down for me is about 400' from the end, some days a little less.

Approach speed is 60KIAS, 127% over full flap stall. Touch down is estimated to be 50-55. Tail up, forward stick, light braking as the aircraft slows. Tail is down at about 40 knots.

The distance to the very end of the runway at a fence was 1120'. The stopping distance from touch down was about 700', I could not find a mark where touch down occurred but know from experience about where it happened. And this was with a down hill slope, exact angle unknown.

Vans says the landing distance at solo weight is 350'. If I can get it on and stopped in 700' without trying anything special - like dragging it in at stall plus nothing - that ain't too shabby.

I'll never be the -8 pilot many here are but we are getting along, I do like flying this airplane.