VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics


Go Back   VAF Forums > RV Firewall Forward Section > Traditional Aircraft Engines
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-19-2014, 05:00 AM
Relentless's Avatar
Relentless Relentless is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: San Luis Obispo
Posts: 199
Thumbs up Titan R409 & EFii Fuel and Ignition Tests, Success...

Busy week at Titan Engines. Bart, Sue, and I are rounding third with Oshkosh preparations. I have so much to share but Ill focus this thread on status of R409 testing and experience with EFii system on R409. Over the past few weeks we have been focusing our efforts on fine tuning peak performance on R409 with AX50 cylinders. The new chamber is much more efficient than traditional cylinders so we wanted to get the most out them. One problem we where running into was lack of fuel at the top end. We tried our own ECi fuel system as well as brand B fuel injection. With these we were able to reach 229hp at 2800rpm and about 434lbs of torque at 2400, impressive but not quite what we expected. I had recently sold a X370 engine to a guy that wanted the new EFii system. So we agreed to install it for him with the assistance of Robert Paisley from Protech and run it on the dyno to break in engine. To our surprise the system was easy to install and even easier to fine tune the customers engine. After this experience I decided to order up a Dual EFii system for my RV8 and test it on the R409. Good decision, the power came up to 234hp and the torque jumped to 454lbs at 2400 rpm... Bart has been for the past two days and I can't wait to put this back on the RV8 this weekend, note the time of this tread.

Here are some pics installing a traditional cooling box on R409. I thought it would take massive modifications but a few carbon pieces and it went on quite nicely. That box has to be tight with this much horsepower. Stay tuned or better yet come buy Titan booth 268 in front of Building A at Oshkosh. If all goes well this week my Titan Rv8 will be center stage sporting a new R409 and all new EFii electric fuel and ignition system. Thanks Robert for pulling out all the stops to get me one of your systems in such short time!

Note total engine weight right off dyno 293.6lbs! To remind ya'll, the Lycoming angle valve 390 we tested a few months ago weighted in at 331lbs without baffling and only made 205hp


Efii system on dyno


R409 234hp at 2780rpm and 454lbs torque at 2400rpm


Fitting standard 360 Vans airbox to AX50 cylinders


One layup required on #4 cylinder, fits nice!


Carbon gap seals on bottom of cylinders works great
__________________
I am RELENTLESS...
R Series Engine Information
Rv8 ACE-360r
Nemesis NXT (building ACE-750r)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-19-2014, 05:20 AM
BillL BillL is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central IL
Posts: 5,516
Default Outstanding!

Engine development has many demons that have to be tamed, and when good results present themselves it is quite rewarding. Smile at your accomplishments, congratulations to the development TEAM. Keep up the good work, this is shaping up nicely. Very nicely.
__________________
Bill

RV-7
Lord Kelvin:
“I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about,
and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you
cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge
is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind.”
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-19-2014, 06:44 AM
M McGraw's Avatar
M McGraw M McGraw is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Greenback, TN
Posts: 534
Default Fuel system

In your pictures I can see the EFii ignition, but I do not see the EFii fuel injectors or return line. Do you have pictures of the fuel system?
__________________
Marvin McGraw, 5TN4
RV-14. #140039 Complete
Flight hours: 500+
2020 Dues Paid
The Dues Paid note is a reminder for me
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-19-2014, 07:57 AM
DanH's Avatar
DanH DanH is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 08A
Posts: 9,500
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Relentless View Post
One problem we where running into was lack of fuel at the top end. We tried our own ECi fuel system as well as brand B fuel injection.
The application would push the top of the RSA5 chart, or at least the one published in the 390 manual. Need what, 130 PPH to be safe?

If I remember correctly Robert uses 60 PPH Siemens injectors, so there's no lack of overhead...the system can reach the necessary fuel flow with just some button pushing. Definitely nice for development and racing engines.

Didn't try an Airflow Performance FM-150? Spec says good to 275 hp.

Quote:
With these we were able to reach 229hp at 2800rpm and about 434lbs of torque at 2400....the power came up to 234hp and the torque jumped to 454lbs at 2400 rpm.
HP up 2%. Was that also at 2800?

Let's remember the RSA-5 is quite restrictive, in terms of manifold pressure loss. Replacing an RSA-5 (or similar) with the big BBK-brand throttle body Robert uses (http://www.bbkperformance.com) should pick up 2%. The same could be said for switching to an RSA-10, or an Airflow Performance FM-200.

Quote:
Note total engine weight right off dyno 293.6lbs!
That's nice!
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 SS
Barrett IO-390

Last edited by DanH : 05-31-2015 at 06:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-19-2014, 08:01 AM
Relentless's Avatar
Relentless Relentless is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: San Luis Obispo
Posts: 199
Default installing in RV8 this weekend

Quote:
Originally Posted by M McGraw View Post
In your pictures I can see the EFii ignition, but I do not see the EFii fuel injectors or return line. Do you have pictures of the fuel system?
I will post more pics once on the plane.
__________________
I am RELENTLESS...
R Series Engine Information
Rv8 ACE-360r
Nemesis NXT (building ACE-750r)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-21-2014, 08:14 PM
Relentless's Avatar
Relentless Relentless is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: San Luis Obispo
Posts: 199
Default EFii R409 going on RV8, smooth install.



This past weekend I attempted to install R409 engine and new dual EFii system along with Buss Manager. I am very impressed with the buss manager. It simplifies all electrical management of dual batteries and offers a third emergency over-ride in the SHTF scenario.

Hook up each battery to the Manager, add emergency bypass switch, moved the switches I had for Lightspeed dual ignition to the buss, added system key switch, and fire it up.

The dual fuel pump system was a bit more work, I had to remove the boost pump but luckily it was the same model as the EFii and rework the fuel lines to firewall. Hooking up relay and connection to buss manager was easy. The Buss manager actually monitors the fuel pressure and automatically switches the backup fuel pump in the event the primary pump starts to loose pressure. One light to mount in panel that indicates if the primary pump is running.

The rest of the cables are easy and supper simple to hook up in RV8. I will need to extend a few wires for the NXT system Robert is building for Relentless! Here is the custom crank trigger they made for my new GTSIO race engine in NXT. Can't wait to run that monster! Can you say 700+hp with dual electric ignition and fuel injection!

__________________
I am RELENTLESS...
R Series Engine Information
Rv8 ACE-360r
Nemesis NXT (building ACE-750r)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-21-2014, 11:44 PM
RV10inOz's Avatar
RV10inOz RV10inOz is offline
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Brisbane Qld. Aust.
Posts: 2,271
Default

Interesting stuff.

I am with DanH that you probably are needing 130-140PPH, so perhaps you are out of the RSA range. In any case you will make the HP with less but the ICP's might be a little high.

So from a design point of view what is the designed ICP you are working to and what were you achieving while under test?
__________________
______________________________

David Brown

DYNON Authorised Dealer and Installer


The two best investments you can make, by any financial test, an EMS and APS!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-24-2014, 01:54 PM
sailvi767 sailvi767 is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 1,166
Default

I notice your HP numbers are at 2400 rpm. Any reason you did not test at 2700? Looks like the engine could be close to 250hp at the higher number.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-25-2014, 10:27 AM
osxuser's Avatar
osxuser osxuser is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pasadena CA
Posts: 2,484
Default

HP was at 2800RPM, Torque was at 2400RPM. As for the RSA5 being out of range, they use that servo on 260HP IO-540's, so that hardly seems probable.
__________________
Stephen Samuelian, CFII, A&P IA, CTO
RV4 wing in Jig @ KPOC
RV7 emp built
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-25-2014, 10:33 AM
RVbySDI's Avatar
RVbySDI RVbySDI is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Tuttle, Oklahoma
Posts: 2,563
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvi767 View Post
I notice your HP numbers are at 2400 rpm. Any reason you did not test at 2700? Looks like the engine could be close to 250hp at the higher number.
Look closely at analysis of any engine, (auto, airplane, rocket - ok, just kidding on that one) and you will see that the RPM reported for the max HP and for the max TORQUE are not the same. The torque curve and the HP curve are not the same, and in some cases quite dramatically different from each other. Max torque is going to be at a different RPM than max HP on pretty much any engine you look at.
__________________
RVBYSDI
Steve
RV9A
https://rvwings.com

Live Long And Prosper! 🖖🏻
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:44 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.